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[Music]

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so

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[Music]

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welcome to coloring outside the lines

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i'm your host dan zetterstrom

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this is something a little different

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every now and then i'll be exploring

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subjects that i feel are relevant to the

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conversation around the search for other

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forms of life and our place in the

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universe

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my hope is that you find the

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conversations both informative and

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thought-provoking and that they help you

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see the world around you in a new light

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with that said thank you for tuning in

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my guest today is a marine ecologist who

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uses passive acoustics to understand

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communication behavior and the impacts

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of marine resource management decisions

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on underwater ecosystems you might know

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her work from the 2021 documentary

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fathom where dr fornay and dr alan

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garland set out on an undertaking as

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colossal as their subjects to decipher

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the complex communication of whales and

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then cover a culture eons older than our

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own ladies and gentlemen dr michelle

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fornay hi michelle how are you doing

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today hi good morning i'm fine thank you

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thanks so much for having me

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oh that's great thank you for coming uh

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you you got coffee with you there i've

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got a cup of tea with me this morning

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great lovely lovely

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okay so let's dive in for those who

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aren't aware just tell us a little bit

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about yourself and your field of study

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sure so um i am an acoustic ecologist

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which means i study

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i study how the natural world functions

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from the perspective of sound

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and predominantly i study underwater

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animals um and then within that i mostly

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my sort of primary subject is humpback

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whales but

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that said

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really what i what i'm trying to do is

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is to be a good listener to the natural

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world and understand how sound

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facilitates natural interactions and

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what it is that we as humans can do to

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protect natural soundscapes and to more

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effectively and happily coexist in this

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sonic world that we live in and how can

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we cultivate

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reverence and appreciation and space for

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animals that rely on sound in order to

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indirect in order to function for their

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basic life functions and and what it is

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that we are doing and can be doing to

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help facilitate that interaction so on

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the most basic level it means that i'm a

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researcher that i do i do research on

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underwater animals and what sounds they

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make um but on the broader scale it

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means that at the end of the day i am

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trying to make this world a better place

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for humans to listen and a better place

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for animals to live

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that's a really cool life mission i have

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to say um in in the film dr alan garland

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talks about kind of noticing the weird

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and and science often finds kind of

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interesting phenomena in in the

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anomalies in data and for a long time we

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assumed that humpback whales were just

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singing pretty songs and it turns out

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that that's not true uh but there's a

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lot more going on and you've set out to

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kind of decode that language so what

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what drove you to do this and where do

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you even start with something like this

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how do you decipher even what a word is

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yeah that's a great question so

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what drove me to do this wasn't wasn't

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science i wasn't a natural born

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scientist you know some people are are

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born with a desire to do science or to

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do math or to do physics um i i did not

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have that um but what i've always had is

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a lot of curiosity and that curiosity

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has driven me to many different places

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and lots of different fields and it took

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me a long time in my life to figure out

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what i wanted my career to be what did i

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want to do professionally and in that

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wandering

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have i moved to southeast alaska not

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because i thought oh i'm going to go and

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and and understand whales or i'm going

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to be a big you know animal lover um i i

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moved there because i was broke and

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because i wanted to get out of chicago

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where i was living and i wanted to

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get back outside and so i took a job on

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a whale watching boat because

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they would hire me i had never seen a

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whale i had never been to alaska i

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hadn't spent a lot of time on the water

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and i had the privilege of being out on

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this boat for 60 hours a week every week

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for four months out of the year

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and

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um

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and i i spent hours and hours and hours

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with whales and

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i started to notice though that this was

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a really profound experience for me it

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was really profound experience for my

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passengers but these boats were noisy

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and i i wanted to do something to give

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back if i had all of this time why was i

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not doing more this was benefiting me

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but it wasn't actually benefiting the

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animals and so from there i started to

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really think and concentrate on what the

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impact of noise might be on the animals

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that i was watching i went back to

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school and in order to even begin to

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figure out how noise is changing

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humpback whale behavior well we first

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have to know what they're saying

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and it was shocking to me that in 2000 i

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think i started this work

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in 2009 but in 2011 i really dove into

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acoustics

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and

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i mean just 11 years ago we didn't even

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know what sounds alaskan humpback whales

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made

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we hadn't we didn't have a good

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catalogue to say oh yeah that belongs to

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a humpback and that was shocking to me

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that there was so little that was known

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and so i began documenting the sounds

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that the whales made and then from there

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i thought okay now i can do this concert

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but now i can meet my conservation goal

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but i couldn't because we still didn't

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know what the sounds meant and how do

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you protect something that you don't

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understand you have to demonstrate that

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it's vital and so that sort of set me

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down this other rabbit hole of saying

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okay well i guess the next step in my

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conservation journey is to understand

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how the whales are communicating and so

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i spent hours and hours and hours

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listening to these animals and trying to

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understand how they were interacting

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developing different hypotheses and then

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finally in 2019

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going out into the field and designing

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this very low impact

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experiment that would help us to

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understand how the whales were

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interacting with each other and i'm

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still following that line of questioning

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still trying to answer the questions of

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what do these sounds mean

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um but it's a very humbling experience

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because as it turns out these whales can

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produce

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dozens hundreds possibly an infinite

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combination of sounds and we are sort of

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going through them one by one one of the

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difficult things is that humpback whales

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can produce this

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wide wide range of sounds and um you

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know possibly an infinite combination of

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sounds and right now i we're in the

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process of trying to understand them

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one by one

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and so it seemed like a natural start to

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pick the sound that humpback whales use

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the most and that's sort of where we

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began this journey and

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we'll see

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what new methods we can come up with and

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how long it might

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how how long this rabbit hole might how

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deep it might be

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that's really cool before we get to that

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kind of magical eureka moment sound that

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uh we spoke about in the film uh can i

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just ask uh did whale communication kind

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of change during uh with the reduced

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noise during the pandemic how did how

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did that affect that

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yeah so we that's a really great

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question and that's a study that we

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started right when the pandemic hit

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actually um i remember sitting on the

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floor of my office on march the 13th

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friday the 13th 2020 and that was the

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last day that i was at work for the

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pandemic hit and we're all sort of

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packing up our offices and and wondering

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what's gonna happen next in life and um

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and someone said to me

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are you gonna put a hydrophone down

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and i thought oh yeah yes yes i'm

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absolutely gonna put a hydrophone down

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and i've been so caught up in sort of

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the social implications that i for 10

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minutes i did i wasn't thinking about

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whales but we sent a hydrophone up to

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glacier bay alaska and we listened

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during the pandemic and did find what i

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think several people have found which is

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the ocean got really quiet

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and that's not true everywhere but it

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certainly was true there and this is an

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area where we've been listening to

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whales for 50 years and actually a

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little bit longer we have this old

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record from the 70s and one of the

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amazing things that we found was that

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when it got quieter the quality of the

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conversation changed

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the the choice of sound types that the

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whales use shifted

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that during quiet periods they were more

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likely to contact call to um are sorry

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during noisy periods they were more

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likely to contact call to sort of try

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and stay in contact with one another and

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during these quiet periods associated

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with the pandemic the conversation got

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richer it got more complex and when we

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went back and compared this to these old

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recordings we had from 1976 when there

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weren't a lot of boats in the area

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what we found is that during the

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pandemic they basically reverted back

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to a sort of

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pre-industrial conversation

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um almost instantaneously so it was yeah

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it was super super super cool to see and

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also an indication of just how resilient

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humpback whales are that they can they

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can sort of bounce right back with

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getting the opportunity

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yeah absolutely it almost makes me think

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of you know when you're in a coffee shop

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with a friend and and it's a noisy

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environment and you don't have privacy

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and you talk about different things and

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and you might not get into as complex

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conversations as you would if you have

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yeah that's exactly it it's completely

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different versus like sitting on your

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couch cuddled up when you can

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bear all and then when there's time

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for nuance you know when when when

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there's when there's time for subtlety

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humans tend to think that we're

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amazingly intelligent yet here we are

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unable to talk to other forms of life on

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this planet um you know there's there's

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a lot to be said about communicating on

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our terms versus on their terms by which

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i mean you know whales learning english

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versus us learning whale um yeah you you

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uh said something in the movie where you

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said uh if i do my job the whale will

278
00:10:44,949 --> 00:10:42,880
never know that i'm there so you kind of

279
00:10:46,550 --> 00:10:44,959
have to trick the whale and i wanted to

280
00:10:48,150 --> 00:10:46,560
know how much wood and you've spoken

281
00:10:49,910 --> 00:10:48,160
kind of you touched on this a second ago

282
00:10:52,630 --> 00:10:49,920
but how much would knowing that you're

283
00:10:54,790 --> 00:10:52,640
there affect your results and do those

284
00:10:56,389 --> 00:10:54,800
sounds change in a group setting

285
00:10:57,590 --> 00:10:56,399
yeah i mean it would affect my results

286
00:10:59,110 --> 00:10:57,600
hugely

287
00:11:02,150 --> 00:10:59,120
i mean i don't

288
00:11:04,550 --> 00:11:02,160
contrary to sort of how all of the media

289
00:11:07,030 --> 00:11:04,560
around fathom has played out i don't

290
00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:07,040
have any desire to talk to whales

291
00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:09,200
um in fact i i would hope that humans

292
00:11:11,750 --> 00:11:10,320
never do

293
00:11:14,550 --> 00:11:11,760
i would hope that we would leave them

294
00:11:18,389 --> 00:11:14,560
alone and that we can happily let them

295
00:11:19,910 --> 00:11:18,399
go and do their thing and and so when i

296
00:11:22,069 --> 00:11:19,920
say that i have to trick the whale

297
00:11:24,389 --> 00:11:22,079
that's because my goal is to understand

298
00:11:26,949 --> 00:11:24,399
how whales talk to each other

299
00:11:29,750 --> 00:11:26,959
how they naturally interact and if i

300
00:11:32,550 --> 00:11:29,760
want to capture that as a researcher

301
00:11:35,110 --> 00:11:32,560
my job is to have as much fidelity as

302
00:11:38,389 --> 00:11:35,120
possible to the natural setting which

303
00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:38,399
means i have to behave like whale

304
00:11:43,030 --> 00:11:40,720
and a great deal of effort is put into

305
00:11:44,230 --> 00:11:43,040
making sure that the playbacks the you

306
00:11:46,069 --> 00:11:44,240
know the speaker that we put into the

307
00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:46,079
water to play sounds to these animals

308
00:11:50,310 --> 00:11:47,360
which is what we do you know we go to

309
00:11:51,670 --> 00:11:50,320
the ocean we find whales and and we play

310
00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:51,680
sounds to them and record how they

311
00:11:55,590 --> 00:11:53,040
respond

312
00:11:57,829 --> 00:11:55,600
the goal is to play sounds that sound

313
00:11:59,750 --> 00:11:57,839
exactly like a whale and that are played

314
00:12:01,030 --> 00:11:59,760
in the exact same cadence that a whale

315
00:12:03,590 --> 00:12:01,040
would say them

316
00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:03,600
and and to really mimic the natural

317
00:12:08,389 --> 00:12:05,920
world as closely as possible

318
00:12:09,430 --> 00:12:08,399
if i don't do that if i go out and i

319
00:12:12,310 --> 00:12:09,440
play

320
00:12:13,670 --> 00:12:12,320
um music to a whale for example

321
00:12:15,990 --> 00:12:13,680
which i've done you know you have to

322
00:12:17,990 --> 00:12:16,000
have a positive control sometimes so you

323
00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:18,000
know i i played bob marley to a whale

324
00:12:21,670 --> 00:12:18,880
once

325
00:12:23,970 --> 00:12:21,680
and which song did you choose

326
00:12:26,389 --> 00:12:23,980
uh i think we did three little birds

327
00:12:27,350 --> 00:12:26,399
[Laughter]

328
00:12:30,230 --> 00:12:27,360
um

329
00:12:32,550 --> 00:12:30,240
and and and then what i'm testing is

330
00:12:35,590 --> 00:12:32,560
does the whale have a novel response to

331
00:12:37,750 --> 00:12:35,600
a stimuli that it it doesn't know

332
00:12:39,829 --> 00:12:37,760
so then then i'm asking a completely

333
00:12:41,750 --> 00:12:39,839
different question how do does a whale

334
00:12:43,670 --> 00:12:41,760
respond when it when it sees or hears

335
00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:43,680
something unexpected

336
00:12:47,829 --> 00:12:45,920
and that's not my question i don't want

337
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:47,839
to surprise the whale i want to

338
00:12:52,710 --> 00:12:49,680
understand the whale and so the work

339
00:12:54,949 --> 00:12:52,720
that i do the whole goal is to go out

340
00:12:57,430 --> 00:12:54,959
and to be as least invasive as possible

341
00:12:59,350 --> 00:12:57,440
while still deepening our understanding

342
00:13:01,190 --> 00:12:59,360
and it takes a while to do that i mean

343
00:13:03,030 --> 00:13:01,200
i've definitely played sounds to whales

344
00:13:04,629 --> 00:13:03,040
that i had to remove from the study

345
00:13:06,389 --> 00:13:04,639
because when i went back and listened to

346
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:06,399
the recording i was like oh

347
00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:07,920
oh that definitely sounds like mickey

348
00:13:13,030 --> 00:13:10,240
mouse like that definitely sounds like

349
00:13:15,590 --> 00:13:13,040
whale robot and not like whale and so

350
00:13:17,509 --> 00:13:15,600
yes a whale probably responded to it but

351
00:13:19,509 --> 00:13:17,519
you know if siri started talking to me

352
00:13:22,230 --> 00:13:19,519
without me you know chatting her up

353
00:13:24,069 --> 00:13:22,240
first i might be surprised and so

354
00:13:26,629 --> 00:13:24,079
it's it's very similar to that with the

355
00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:26,639
whale is is the whale whales are are

356
00:13:30,949 --> 00:13:27,760
very

357
00:13:33,110 --> 00:13:30,959
subtle complex intelligent creatures and

358
00:13:35,350 --> 00:13:33,120
they have a very

359
00:13:38,629 --> 00:13:35,360
highly developed communication system so

360
00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:38,639
if i play a sound that sounds insincere

361
00:13:42,150 --> 00:13:40,320
without knowing everything there is to

362
00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:42,160
know about humpback whale hearing i

363
00:13:45,829 --> 00:13:43,680
would be surprised if it couldn't tell

364
00:13:47,189 --> 00:13:45,839
the difference between a synthesized

365
00:13:49,750 --> 00:13:47,199
sound and

366
00:13:52,230 --> 00:13:49,760
and a real one so my job is to be as

367
00:13:54,389 --> 00:13:52,240
faithful as possible

368
00:13:56,629 --> 00:13:54,399
sure so let's talk about some of these

369
00:13:58,629 --> 00:13:56,639
sounds so in the film we identified uh

370
00:14:00,069 --> 00:13:58,639
there was the tb the droplet the growl

371
00:14:02,310 --> 00:14:00,079
quite quite a lot of calls but there was

372
00:14:03,430 --> 00:14:02,320
one kind of magical one called the warp

373
00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:03,440
call

374
00:14:06,550 --> 00:14:05,040
that seemed to be the key can you tell

375
00:14:08,230 --> 00:14:06,560
me about that and whether all humpback

376
00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:08,240
whales make it

377
00:14:15,590 --> 00:14:13,910
this call i think is is one of the most

378
00:14:17,590 --> 00:14:15,600
important sounds that humpback whales

379
00:14:20,389 --> 00:14:17,600
worldwide produce

380
00:14:23,910 --> 00:14:20,399
so um it's it's a really lovely call it

381
00:14:28,629 --> 00:14:25,430
is sort of um

382
00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:28,639
how how i impersonate it and we've done

383
00:14:32,069 --> 00:14:30,560
some research again sort of laying the

384
00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:32,079
foundation for understanding all these

385
00:14:37,269 --> 00:14:35,120
things and in every population that we

386
00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:37,279
have looked for this call we have found

387
00:14:40,629 --> 00:14:38,240
it

388
00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:40,639
so i've listened to recordings from

389
00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:42,320
antarctica and heard whoop calls i've

390
00:14:46,069 --> 00:14:44,079
listened to recordings from south africa

391
00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:46,079
and her book calls from

392
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:47,920
hawaii from

393
00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:51,360
from rortonga from iceland from norway

394
00:14:55,750 --> 00:14:53,839
from california from alaska every place

395
00:14:57,189 --> 00:14:55,760
where we have looked for it

396
00:14:59,350 --> 00:14:57,199
we have found it

397
00:15:01,750 --> 00:14:59,360
and this call is produced by male whales

398
00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:01,760
by female whales by young whales by old

399
00:15:06,470 --> 00:15:04,560
whales and they there are several calls

400
00:15:08,310 --> 00:15:06,480
that we think are are ubiquitous like

401
00:15:09,829 --> 00:15:08,320
this that might be innate you know calls

402
00:15:11,990 --> 00:15:09,839
that are sort of embedded in the

403
00:15:14,069 --> 00:15:12,000
humpback repertoire but this one really

404
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:14,079
dominates in that it's very commonly

405
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:15,279
used

406
00:15:19,829 --> 00:15:17,760
and when i you know i've listened to

407
00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:19,839
hundreds probably thousands of hours of

408
00:15:24,310 --> 00:15:21,440
humpback wheel

409
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:24,320
you know acoustic exchanges and one of

410
00:15:28,230 --> 00:15:26,320
the things that myself and my colleague

411
00:15:30,629 --> 00:15:28,240
chris gabriel and and her colleague

412
00:15:33,110 --> 00:15:30,639
lauren wilde sort of noticed just by

413
00:15:34,949 --> 00:15:33,120
listening is that this call occurs in

414
00:15:37,110 --> 00:15:34,959
these counter calls

415
00:15:38,829 --> 00:15:37,120
that you hear one in a few moments you

416
00:15:41,829 --> 00:15:38,839
hear another one and they're slightly

417
00:15:43,990 --> 00:15:41,839
different and so we developed this

418
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:44,000
hypothesis that this is a contact call

419
00:15:47,990 --> 00:15:46,399
this is a way that a whale would find

420
00:15:49,350 --> 00:15:48,000
and identify

421
00:15:52,150 --> 00:15:49,360
another whale

422
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:52,160
and it's kind of like yelling marco polo

423
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:54,639
yeah a little bit like marco polo a

424
00:15:58,870 --> 00:15:56,560
little bit exactly

425
00:16:00,310 --> 00:15:58,880
and and and the other thing that we're

426
00:16:03,030 --> 00:16:00,320
working on now and i'm actually headed

427
00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:03,040
to alaska in just a few weeks to dive

428
00:16:08,949 --> 00:16:06,240
into this is is this concept of voice

429
00:16:12,310 --> 00:16:08,959
is can you tell the individual by the

430
00:16:14,550 --> 00:16:12,320
sound of their voice and and if so is

431
00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:14,560
this the right call to find it if all

432
00:16:18,069 --> 00:16:16,160
whales are producing this call and

433
00:16:19,829 --> 00:16:18,079
whales use this to counter call back and

434
00:16:21,590 --> 00:16:19,839
forth with one another

435
00:16:22,949 --> 00:16:21,600
if there is embedded this concept of

436
00:16:25,829 --> 00:16:22,959
voice it means that whales might be

437
00:16:26,710 --> 00:16:25,839
using this this call to to identify one

438
00:16:27,509 --> 00:16:26,720
another

439
00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:27,519
and

440
00:16:32,069 --> 00:16:30,800
new research that just came out that

441
00:16:33,910 --> 00:16:32,079
demonstrates that humpback whales in

442
00:16:35,670 --> 00:16:33,920
alaska

443
00:16:37,189 --> 00:16:35,680
i mean they form relationships that last

444
00:16:40,069 --> 00:16:37,199
for decades

445
00:16:41,430 --> 00:16:40,079
and and different different whales spend

446
00:16:42,550 --> 00:16:41,440
time in sort of the in different

447
00:16:43,430 --> 00:16:42,560
communities

448
00:16:46,629 --> 00:16:43,440
and

449
00:16:49,189 --> 00:16:46,639
you're going to maintain a relationship

450
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:49,199
underwater where light travels a very

451
00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:50,880
short distance and sound travels very

452
00:16:53,350 --> 00:16:51,920
very far

453
00:16:55,350 --> 00:16:53,360
it makes sense that if you're trying to

454
00:16:58,069 --> 00:16:55,360
find someone that you know

455
00:17:00,629 --> 00:16:58,079
that you'll do so through sound

456
00:17:01,670 --> 00:17:00,639
and so i think that this whoop call is

457
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:01,680
um

458
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:04,079
is the whale's way of maintaining

459
00:17:08,549 --> 00:17:06,480
contact with one another and

460
00:17:09,750 --> 00:17:08,559
and when and it also just shows up

461
00:17:11,909 --> 00:17:09,760
everywhere when you listen and it's a

462
00:17:14,470 --> 00:17:11,919
wonderful sound to hear and so it made

463
00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:14,480
sense when we're trying to understand

464
00:17:20,309 --> 00:17:17,520
the system of communication to to start

465
00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:20,319
there to start with the foundational

466
00:17:23,029 --> 00:17:21,600
you know you said earlier in this

467
00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:23,039
conversation that

468
00:17:26,949 --> 00:17:24,640
part of what science does is to

469
00:17:29,830 --> 00:17:26,959
recognize the unusual you know to find

470
00:17:32,070 --> 00:17:29,840
the weird and so much of science and a

471
00:17:34,630 --> 00:17:32,080
lot of society is about identifying the

472
00:17:37,669 --> 00:17:34,640
rare the rare and the precious

473
00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:37,679
and um i do the opposite of that i want

474
00:17:42,789 --> 00:17:40,559
to understand the most mundane humpback

475
00:17:45,029 --> 00:17:42,799
whale behavior there is i want to know

476
00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:45,039
what these whales do every single day

477
00:17:50,870 --> 00:17:47,520
without even giving it a second thought

478
00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:50,880
um i i am much less interested in

479
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:53,520
the anomalous and and i want to be able

480
00:17:57,110 --> 00:17:55,200
to perceive the world from the

481
00:17:59,669 --> 00:17:57,120
perspective of these animals which means

482
00:18:01,909 --> 00:17:59,679
understanding their ordinary behavior

483
00:18:04,390 --> 00:18:01,919
and i think that this whoop call

484
00:18:08,630 --> 00:18:04,400
is sort of deeply seated in the root of

485
00:18:10,630 --> 00:18:08,640
of their their ordinary day-to-day life

486
00:18:12,549 --> 00:18:10,640
it's a really kind of magical call

487
00:18:14,310 --> 00:18:12,559
because it kind of almost sounds like

488
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:14,320
they could be using it as a name or

489
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:15,760
something you know an identifier for

490
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:18,000
each other um and it's amazing to think

491
00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:20,160
that there's kind of this complex

492
00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:22,000
culture there um but i was hoping that

493
00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:23,840
you'd speak a little bit more about how

494
00:18:26,870 --> 00:18:25,440
complex that culture is but what do we

495
00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:26,880
mean by that when they say that we say

496
00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:28,640
that it's one of the oldest complex

497
00:18:31,909 --> 00:18:30,000
cultures

498
00:18:34,310 --> 00:18:31,919
yeah absolutely so

499
00:18:35,990 --> 00:18:34,320
um and you know the i i'll apologize now

500
00:18:37,909 --> 00:18:36,000
to the cultural anthropologists out

501
00:18:39,029 --> 00:18:37,919
there because um biologists have

502
00:18:40,870 --> 00:18:39,039
definitely

503
00:18:42,630 --> 00:18:40,880
co-opted this concept of culture and

504
00:18:43,750 --> 00:18:42,640
there's quite a large scientific debate

505
00:18:46,070 --> 00:18:43,760
over whether or not animals can have

506
00:18:47,510 --> 00:18:46,080
culture i certainly land on the side of

507
00:18:49,029 --> 00:18:47,520
yes animals can have culture and

508
00:18:50,070 --> 00:18:49,039
humpback oils are a great example of

509
00:18:53,909 --> 00:18:50,080
that

510
00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:53,919
um culture can be defined as information

511
00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:56,480
which is transmitted and learned

512
00:19:00,549 --> 00:18:58,799
um so information that one individual or

513
00:19:02,789 --> 00:19:00,559
one population gets from another

514
00:19:05,909 --> 00:19:02,799
individual or another population so it's

515
00:19:08,549 --> 00:19:05,919
not genetically passed on it's not um

516
00:19:10,870 --> 00:19:08,559
inherited from from you know from parent

517
00:19:12,870 --> 00:19:10,880
to offspring it's information that

518
00:19:14,710 --> 00:19:12,880
spreads and it can either be

519
00:19:15,830 --> 00:19:14,720
horizontally transmitted so you can

520
00:19:18,070 --> 00:19:15,840
learn it from someone of your same

521
00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:18,080
generation um someone you're not related

522
00:19:21,909 --> 00:19:20,400
to it can be obliquely transmitted so

523
00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:21,919
someone from another generation might

524
00:19:25,190 --> 00:19:23,600
send it down to a lower generation that

525
00:19:27,510 --> 00:19:25,200
they're not related to

526
00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:27,520
it's this concept that we can transfer

527
00:19:31,029 --> 00:19:29,280
and that animals can transfer

528
00:19:31,990 --> 00:19:31,039
information

529
00:19:41,029 --> 00:19:32,000
and

530
00:19:43,590 --> 00:19:41,039
thrive

531
00:19:44,470 --> 00:19:43,600
so we think of whale song as this really

532
00:19:47,110 --> 00:19:44,480
great

533
00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:47,120
example of cultural transmission because

534
00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:49,600
it's learned because animals learn it

535
00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:52,400
from each other and some of ellen's work

536
00:19:55,990 --> 00:19:54,080
and then really she's a person to talk

537
00:19:57,590 --> 00:19:56,000
to about this demonstrates that this

538
00:19:59,190 --> 00:19:57,600
song

539
00:20:01,110 --> 00:19:59,200
it travels at

540
00:20:03,350 --> 00:20:01,120
large scale from one population to

541
00:20:06,230 --> 00:20:03,360
another population and that it sort of

542
00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:06,240
moves from ocean basin to ocean basin in

543
00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:08,880
this pattern of social learning and we

544
00:20:12,870 --> 00:20:11,280
see this also with foraging behavior you

545
00:20:15,029 --> 00:20:12,880
know humpback whales are really

546
00:20:17,029 --> 00:20:15,039
behaviorally plastic they learn very

547
00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:17,039
quickly and so one animal might develop

548
00:20:21,190 --> 00:20:18,720
a new foraging technique and then

549
00:20:24,149 --> 00:20:21,200
another animal will observe it and adopt

550
00:20:25,750 --> 00:20:24,159
it and that behavior spreads and so the

551
00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:25,760
next thing we know we see a behavior

552
00:20:30,390 --> 00:20:28,000
that was really isolated amongst just a

553
00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:30,400
few individuals and and now it's a

554
00:20:32,950 --> 00:20:31,760
handful of individuals and now it's

555
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:32,960
hundreds of individuals now it's

556
00:20:36,070 --> 00:20:34,400
thousands of individuals

557
00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:36,080
and now it's moving from one population

558
00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:37,840
to another population

559
00:20:41,669 --> 00:20:39,120
and so

560
00:20:43,590 --> 00:20:41,679
what's lovely about studying humpback

561
00:20:46,149 --> 00:20:43,600
whales in terms of culture is watching

562
00:20:46,870 --> 00:20:46,159
them learn from each other and watching

563
00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:46,880
them

564
00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:49,440
teach each other and of course this all

565
00:20:53,590 --> 00:20:52,400
has to be observed at these really grand

566
00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:53,600
scales

567
00:20:57,990 --> 00:20:56,480
because um you know whales communicate

568
00:21:00,149 --> 00:20:58,000
over long distances they travel long

569
00:21:03,029 --> 00:21:00,159
distances they live long lives so to

570
00:21:05,909 --> 00:21:03,039
watch a behavior ripple outward from one

571
00:21:06,950 --> 00:21:05,919
to many it takes a lot of perspective

572
00:21:08,789 --> 00:21:06,960
um

573
00:21:10,710 --> 00:21:08,799
but yeah they're an excellent example of

574
00:21:12,630 --> 00:21:10,720
it in nature for sure

575
00:21:14,549 --> 00:21:12,640
amazing uh there's a great sequence in

576
00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:14,559
the film where it's kind of um

577
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:16,480
a pitch black screen and you see these

578
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:18,480
kind of light shows uh on the screen as

579
00:21:22,470 --> 00:21:20,880
you're hearing the sounds uh kind of

580
00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:22,480
like lighthouses in the dark and the

581
00:21:26,149 --> 00:21:24,400
voiceover says it's like knowing where

582
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:26,159
the stars fit within time and space with

583
00:21:29,029 --> 00:21:27,760
just your ears i thought that was a

584
00:21:31,190 --> 00:21:29,039
really beautiful way to pour it and

585
00:21:33,510 --> 00:21:31,200
maybe think of how the ocean just has

586
00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:33,520
this barrage of sound and i know if it

587
00:21:36,230 --> 00:21:34,880
was me that would give me a massive

588
00:21:38,470 --> 00:21:36,240
headache and i wouldn't know where to

589
00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:38,480
start with it but um how do whales kind

590
00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:41,360
of process all of those different kind

591
00:21:45,750 --> 00:21:42,960
of signals

592
00:21:48,710 --> 00:21:45,760
oh i don't know

593
00:21:50,710 --> 00:21:48,720
i i have no idea how they process these

594
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:50,720
signals it's true because it isn't just

595
00:21:53,750 --> 00:21:52,080
the sound of each other that they're

596
00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:53,760
processing it's also the sound of all

597
00:21:57,110 --> 00:21:55,120
the other animals in the ocean that

598
00:21:58,549 --> 00:21:57,120
they're processing and they likely

599
00:22:00,390 --> 00:21:58,559
respond to that

600
00:22:02,149 --> 00:22:00,400
um you know there's there's fish and

601
00:22:03,590 --> 00:22:02,159
there's seals and there's wind and

602
00:22:06,470 --> 00:22:03,600
there's rain

603
00:22:07,669 --> 00:22:06,480
and and i i think that in the same way

604
00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:07,679
that

605
00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:08,880
you know i can

606
00:22:13,350 --> 00:22:11,280
i can look out into my garden and

607
00:22:15,350 --> 00:22:13,360
i can see the flowers and and the dew

608
00:22:18,549 --> 00:22:15,360
drops and the rain falling at the same

609
00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:18,559
time and my eyes can process that and if

610
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:20,640
i'm processing it carefully i can i can

611
00:22:23,830 --> 00:22:22,320
both know what's there and i can also

612
00:22:25,029 --> 00:22:23,840
appreciate it

613
00:22:27,830 --> 00:22:25,039
i think that

614
00:22:29,750 --> 00:22:27,840
that's likely how it is for whales

615
00:22:32,470 --> 00:22:29,760
you know the sounds that they hear they

616
00:22:35,029 --> 00:22:32,480
have millions of years of evolutionary

617
00:22:37,830 --> 00:22:35,039
processes that have allowed them to

618
00:22:40,470 --> 00:22:37,840
interpret complex sounds and to pay

619
00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:40,480
attention to them in a way that seems

620
00:22:45,669 --> 00:22:43,120
almost impossible for humans

621
00:22:48,070 --> 00:22:45,679
and and so i think as always putting the

622
00:22:49,990 --> 00:22:48,080
animal into context helps quite a bit

623
00:22:52,310 --> 00:22:50,000
they've spent generations upon

624
00:22:55,830 --> 00:22:52,320
generations upon generations learning

625
00:22:57,669 --> 00:22:55,840
how to interpret those acoustic stars

626
00:23:00,070 --> 00:22:57,679
yeah absolutely it's really interesting

627
00:23:01,990 --> 00:23:00,080
how we are how we see the world is a

628
00:23:04,149 --> 00:23:02,000
product of how our biology developed and

629
00:23:05,430 --> 00:23:04,159
evolved um

630
00:23:07,590 --> 00:23:05,440
to that end

631
00:23:09,270 --> 00:23:07,600
uh excuse my ignorance but how do whales

632
00:23:11,590 --> 00:23:09,280
even make the sounds do they have vocal

633
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:11,600
chords like we do or something else

634
00:23:16,470 --> 00:23:14,240
kind of they have vocal folds which is

635
00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:16,480
like a vocal cord homolog it's you know

636
00:23:21,830 --> 00:23:20,320
the whale version of a vocal cord and um

637
00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:21,840
i never get this quite right i really

638
00:23:25,029 --> 00:23:23,520
should do better at it but humans have

639
00:23:26,310 --> 00:23:25,039
vocal cords that go in one direction i

640
00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:26,320
believe they're horizontally and whales

641
00:23:30,149 --> 00:23:28,400
have vocal folds that go vertically i

642
00:23:31,510 --> 00:23:30,159
could be wrong about that but basically

643
00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:31,520
they do they have vocal folds that are

644
00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:34,080
very similar to ours and they pass air

645
00:23:37,110 --> 00:23:35,520
back and forth through these vocal folds

646
00:23:39,750 --> 00:23:37,120
similar to the way that humans produce

647
00:23:40,950 --> 00:23:39,760
sound the difference is it's a closed

648
00:23:44,070 --> 00:23:40,960
system

649
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:44,080
when we produce sounds we exhale or

650
00:23:47,909 --> 00:23:46,400
inhale as we're talking but whales when

651
00:23:50,549 --> 00:23:47,919
they're producing sound underwater are

652
00:23:51,909 --> 00:23:50,559
not releasing air um you know there's no

653
00:23:53,750 --> 00:23:51,919
bubbles coming out of their of their

654
00:23:55,590 --> 00:23:53,760
blowhole when they vocalize and so it's

655
00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:55,600
actually the passage of sound back and

656
00:23:59,029 --> 00:23:57,440
forth across these vocal folds but also

657
00:24:01,269 --> 00:23:59,039
through a series of sinuses that are in

658
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:01,279
their skull so it's just the passage of

659
00:24:07,269 --> 00:24:04,960
air over space producing vibrations

660
00:24:10,549 --> 00:24:07,279
and humpback whales are are exceptional

661
00:24:13,269 --> 00:24:10,559
in the range of sounds that they make so

662
00:24:15,269 --> 00:24:13,279
we don't see that in a lot of other in

663
00:24:16,630 --> 00:24:15,279
any other marine mammals except perhaps

664
00:24:17,510 --> 00:24:16,640
bowhead whales

665
00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:17,520
um

666
00:24:21,830 --> 00:24:19,679
and so a lot of that complexity we don't

667
00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:21,840
actually we don't we don't know the

668
00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:23,760
mechanism behind it

669
00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:25,760
um other than to say that it is still

670
00:24:31,269 --> 00:24:27,760
this mammalian system of communication

671
00:24:32,470 --> 00:24:31,279
but a closed a closed system

672
00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:32,480
that's really cool

673
00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:34,080
do whales use kind of

674
00:24:37,990 --> 00:24:36,000
because sound travels differently in

675
00:24:39,909 --> 00:24:38,000
different mediums so i wondered if what

676
00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:39,919
else kind of use different frequencies

677
00:24:42,549 --> 00:24:41,600
to call further or shorter distances

678
00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:42,559
maybe

679
00:24:45,269 --> 00:24:43,760
sure i mean that's definitely the

680
00:24:47,029 --> 00:24:45,279
running hypothesis and we use that

681
00:24:49,029 --> 00:24:47,039
hypothesis when we try and infer call

682
00:24:50,789 --> 00:24:49,039
function um and that's absolutely true

683
00:24:53,269 --> 00:24:50,799
for other odometer seats like um like

684
00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:53,279
dolphins and porpoises so low frequency

685
00:24:57,669 --> 00:24:55,039
sound underwater will travel much

686
00:24:59,990 --> 00:24:57,679
further than high frequency sound so the

687
00:25:01,510 --> 00:25:00,000
sound of a blue whale i mean modeling

688
00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:01,520
has shown that blue whale and fin whale

689
00:25:07,029 --> 00:25:03,600
vocalizations can travel for

690
00:25:09,029 --> 00:25:07,039
thousands of kilometers whereas um white

691
00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:09,039
sided dolphins for example that have

692
00:25:13,590 --> 00:25:11,600
very high frequency echolocation clicks

693
00:25:15,029 --> 00:25:13,600
those clicks will only travel

694
00:25:17,590 --> 00:25:15,039
several meters

695
00:25:19,269 --> 00:25:17,600
um and so there is absolutely a

696
00:25:22,310 --> 00:25:19,279
relationship between frequency and

697
00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:22,320
distance and um for humpback whales that

698
00:25:25,909 --> 00:25:24,320
produce sound within the range of human

699
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:25,919
hearing you know everything that they

700
00:25:28,230 --> 00:25:26,880
that they

701
00:25:31,190 --> 00:25:28,240
all the sounds they produce we can more

702
00:25:32,630 --> 00:25:31,200
or less hear um we we can use whether or

703
00:25:35,430 --> 00:25:32,640
not they've produced this really high

704
00:25:38,230 --> 00:25:35,440
squeaky up sweep or this really low boom

705
00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:38,240
to infer something about call function

706
00:25:41,590 --> 00:25:40,080
um and then some of the sounds that they

707
00:25:43,590 --> 00:25:41,600
make are very closely coupled with

708
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:43,600
things like prey you know humpback

709
00:25:47,110 --> 00:25:45,360
whales produce a feeding call in the

710
00:25:48,630 --> 00:25:47,120
pacific in southeast alaska and in

711
00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:48,640
northern british columbia

712
00:25:53,110 --> 00:25:51,200
it's a 500 hertz call sounds a little

713
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:53,120
bit like an opera singers you know

714
00:25:56,870 --> 00:25:55,120
sustaining a note

715
00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:56,880
um we don't hear that call in other

716
00:26:00,549 --> 00:25:58,799
populations we do believe that this call

717
00:26:02,470 --> 00:26:00,559
is culturally transmitted that it's

718
00:26:03,590 --> 00:26:02,480
passed from one you know one generation

719
00:26:04,549 --> 00:26:03,600
to the other

720
00:26:06,549 --> 00:26:04,559
um

721
00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:06,559
but that call is very closely coupled

722
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:09,840
with hearing in fish in in one specific

723
00:26:15,029 --> 00:26:13,200
fish in the pacific herring and so the

724
00:26:17,590 --> 00:26:15,039
only time we hear it is when humpback

725
00:26:20,070 --> 00:26:17,600
whales are foraging on pacific herring

726
00:26:22,710 --> 00:26:20,080
and if they up shifted and made that

727
00:26:24,710 --> 00:26:22,720
call much higher or downshifted and made

728
00:26:26,149 --> 00:26:24,720
the call much lower the fish wouldn't

729
00:26:27,350 --> 00:26:26,159
hear it as well and so they wouldn't

730
00:26:29,909 --> 00:26:27,360
respond

731
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:29,919
and so we see that humpback whales are

732
00:26:33,990 --> 00:26:32,320
very adept at coupling the sounds they

733
00:26:36,470 --> 00:26:34,000
make with the environments that they're

734
00:26:38,310 --> 00:26:36,480
in how far can your your microphones

735
00:26:39,669 --> 00:26:38,320
here then because i imagine there's

736
00:26:41,830 --> 00:26:39,679
there's a lot of work that goes into

737
00:26:43,110 --> 00:26:41,840
replicating those kind of you know the

738
00:26:45,430 --> 00:26:43,120
ears that connect up those sounds

739
00:26:47,669 --> 00:26:45,440
underwater yeah well it all depends on

740
00:26:50,070 --> 00:26:47,679
how loud the whale is calling

741
00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:50,080
um so you know humpback whales when they

742
00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:52,240
sing they produce these really loud

743
00:26:57,110 --> 00:26:54,640
songs songs can be heard for kilometers

744
00:26:59,669 --> 00:26:57,120
um you know tens tens of kilometers

745
00:27:01,190 --> 00:26:59,679
depending on oceanographic conditions

746
00:27:02,789 --> 00:27:01,200
um

747
00:27:04,630 --> 00:27:02,799
where i do my work the sounds don't

748
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:04,640
actually travel very far

749
00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:06,720
like my microphone can hear far my

750
00:27:09,269 --> 00:27:08,080
microphone can hear boats that are 10

751
00:27:10,149 --> 00:27:09,279
miles away

752
00:27:11,830 --> 00:27:10,159
um

753
00:27:13,590 --> 00:27:11,840
but it can't hear a whale that's that

754
00:27:15,190 --> 00:27:13,600
far away because the whale isn't that

755
00:27:17,750 --> 00:27:15,200
loud

756
00:27:18,710 --> 00:27:17,760
so what i find in them though

757
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:18,720
what our

758
00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:20,480
what the science tells us is that in

759
00:27:24,549 --> 00:27:22,640
alaska you can only hear humpback whales

760
00:27:26,710 --> 00:27:24,559
for maybe three or four kilometers not

761
00:27:28,310 --> 00:27:26,720
that far you know given the fact that

762
00:27:31,029 --> 00:27:28,320
they can produce sounds that can travel

763
00:27:33,590 --> 00:27:31,039
for tens or twenty you know you know

764
00:27:36,230 --> 00:27:33,600
tens of kilometers um

765
00:27:38,389 --> 00:27:36,240
and so the question there is why

766
00:27:39,750 --> 00:27:38,399
why is it that humpback whales in alaska

767
00:27:41,430 --> 00:27:39,760
are so quiet

768
00:27:44,149 --> 00:27:41,440
what secrets are they telling that they

769
00:27:46,389 --> 00:27:44,159
are whispering instead of screaming and

770
00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:46,399
when we do our work we try and replicate

771
00:27:49,590 --> 00:27:48,559
that exactly so we produce sounds that

772
00:27:51,909 --> 00:27:49,600
are the same

773
00:27:53,350 --> 00:27:51,919
loudness or i guess the same quietness

774
00:27:54,149 --> 00:27:53,360
as the whales itself

775
00:27:56,070 --> 00:27:54,159
um

776
00:27:58,149 --> 00:27:56,080
but the answer is that the whales that

777
00:28:00,230 --> 00:27:58,159
i'm listening to in alaska

778
00:28:02,549 --> 00:28:00,240
aren't actually that far away usually if

779
00:28:04,149 --> 00:28:02,559
i can see them i can hear them and

780
00:28:08,230 --> 00:28:04,159
usually if i can hear a whale on my

781
00:28:09,830 --> 00:28:08,240
hydrophone it's probably within eyesight

782
00:28:11,909 --> 00:28:09,840
okay that's interesting

783
00:28:13,590 --> 00:28:11,919
earlier you mentioned uh the whales

784
00:28:15,269 --> 00:28:13,600
travel real fur and i know that birds

785
00:28:16,789 --> 00:28:15,279
navigate using magnetic fields and

786
00:28:19,029 --> 00:28:16,799
there's all sorts of ways that animals

787
00:28:21,830 --> 00:28:19,039
interpret the world um do we know how

788
00:28:23,110 --> 00:28:21,840
humpback whales navigate the world

789
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:23,120
no

790
00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:25,200
um so i hope that there are lots of

791
00:28:28,710 --> 00:28:27,120
budding marine biologists out there that

792
00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:28,720
are still interested in answering all of

793
00:28:32,470 --> 00:28:30,960
the questions that we it seems like we

794
00:28:33,350 --> 00:28:32,480
should know when we don't

795
00:28:35,190 --> 00:28:33,360
um

796
00:28:36,710 --> 00:28:35,200
we we know there's some evidence that

797
00:28:38,549 --> 00:28:36,720
similar to birds that humpback whales

798
00:28:41,269 --> 00:28:38,559
might be using um

799
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:41,279
might be using magnets there's a really

800
00:28:44,710 --> 00:28:42,880
really interesting paper that says that

801
00:28:45,750 --> 00:28:44,720
humpback whales might actually be using

802
00:28:47,909 --> 00:28:45,760
um

803
00:28:49,750 --> 00:28:47,919
gravitational pull you know differences

804
00:28:53,269 --> 00:28:49,760
in the gravitational field

805
00:28:55,590 --> 00:28:53,279
um to to migrate more effectively um

806
00:28:57,990 --> 00:28:55,600
there's plenty of hypotheses that whales

807
00:28:59,510 --> 00:28:58,000
listen for acoustic cues and that they

808
00:29:00,549 --> 00:28:59,520
can actually listen their way to where

809
00:29:01,750 --> 00:29:00,559
they're going

810
00:29:03,430 --> 00:29:01,760
um

811
00:29:05,350 --> 00:29:03,440
i i mean as an acoustician i certainly

812
00:29:06,789 --> 00:29:05,360
subscribe to that one i know that if i

813
00:29:09,190 --> 00:29:06,799
close my eyes and walk up and down my

814
00:29:11,269 --> 00:29:09,200
street i know how close i am to my house

815
00:29:12,950 --> 00:29:11,279
i mean i can i can hear my chickens

816
00:29:14,789 --> 00:29:12,960
clucking before i turn the corner and i

817
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:14,799
know that i'm almost home

818
00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:16,960
and we know that soundscapes in the

819
00:29:20,470 --> 00:29:19,120
ocean are unique that sound of a coral

820
00:29:21,830 --> 00:29:20,480
reef is different than the sound of a

821
00:29:24,710 --> 00:29:21,840
kelp bed which is different than the

822
00:29:26,549 --> 00:29:24,720
sound of the basin in open ocean so

823
00:29:27,590 --> 00:29:26,559
likely they they could be using sound

824
00:29:29,590 --> 00:29:27,600
but

825
00:29:30,389 --> 00:29:29,600
do we know exactly

826
00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:30,399
no

827
00:29:38,870 --> 00:29:37,520
they do it and i would say that that is

828
00:29:41,269 --> 00:29:38,880
very much

829
00:29:43,990 --> 00:29:41,279
where we are with a lot of science with

830
00:29:46,630 --> 00:29:44,000
a lot of marine mammal sciences often we

831
00:29:49,350 --> 00:29:46,640
know the what and that took

832
00:29:52,389 --> 00:29:49,360
a long time and lots of people

833
00:29:54,389 --> 00:29:52,399
we're beginning to understand the how

834
00:29:56,710 --> 00:29:54,399
but it's going to be the future marine

835
00:30:01,510 --> 00:29:56,720
biologists who really

836
00:30:04,710 --> 00:30:03,190
the the frontier there is is really

837
00:30:07,110 --> 00:30:04,720
incredible and your rights point out

838
00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:07,120
that there's a lot that we think of as

839
00:30:10,789 --> 00:30:09,200
kind of solved that really isn't you

840
00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:10,799
know the worlds are kind of it's full of

841
00:30:13,750 --> 00:30:12,320
these real mysteries that people can go

842
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:13,760
out and solve

843
00:30:19,750 --> 00:30:16,000
what what is the the kind of

844
00:30:22,310 --> 00:30:19,760
weirdest or coolest way that an animal

845
00:30:23,990 --> 00:30:22,320
uh you know communicates or kind of sees

846
00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:24,000
the world that you've come across

847
00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:31,190
that's a great question i mean there's

848
00:30:34,789 --> 00:30:32,720
so many

849
00:30:36,230 --> 00:30:34,799
amazing examples of how animals

850
00:30:38,789 --> 00:30:36,240
communicate that are completely

851
00:30:40,789 --> 00:30:38,799
non-intuitive to humans

852
00:30:43,590 --> 00:30:40,799
um i mean i'm always partial to to

853
00:30:45,590 --> 00:30:43,600
underwater animals but i mean this is a

854
00:30:47,350 --> 00:30:45,600
fairly common example but the waggle

855
00:30:49,029 --> 00:30:47,360
dance and honeybees

856
00:30:51,430 --> 00:30:49,039
you know

857
00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:51,440
they they will fly in specific patterns

858
00:30:55,750 --> 00:30:53,679
in in in this sort of aerial dance to

859
00:30:57,269 --> 00:30:55,760
transmit information on where on where

860
00:30:59,110 --> 00:30:57,279
pollen is and on where good you know

861
00:31:01,509 --> 00:30:59,120
where flower sources are

862
00:31:03,750 --> 00:31:01,519
i mean that's a very what we think of as

863
00:31:05,190 --> 00:31:03,760
a comparatively simple creature with

864
00:31:06,549 --> 00:31:05,200
this incredibly complex system of

865
00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:06,559
communication which i think is just

866
00:31:08,789 --> 00:31:07,840
extraordinary

867
00:31:10,789 --> 00:31:08,799
um

868
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:10,799
or or you know

869
00:31:13,909 --> 00:31:12,720
you know other sort of simple examples

870
00:31:15,669 --> 00:31:13,919
are the fact that

871
00:31:17,509 --> 00:31:15,679
like birds will couple the sounds of

872
00:31:19,110 --> 00:31:17,519
their calls with their environment you

873
00:31:20,389 --> 00:31:19,120
can listen to a bird and you can tell

874
00:31:22,310 --> 00:31:20,399
whether or not it's calling from a

875
00:31:24,789 --> 00:31:22,320
prairie or whether or not it's calling

876
00:31:26,710 --> 00:31:24,799
from a forest because sound can be more

877
00:31:28,549 --> 00:31:26,720
complex in a prairie it doesn't run into

878
00:31:30,549 --> 00:31:28,559
trees and bounce around but you might

879
00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:30,559
need to have a simpler call to call in

880
00:31:33,509 --> 00:31:31,679
the forest

881
00:31:35,669 --> 00:31:33,519
um but certainly some of my favorite

882
00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:35,679
sounds that i've ever listened to are

883
00:31:39,110 --> 00:31:37,360
are marine animals

884
00:31:40,870 --> 00:31:39,120
um i would encourage everyone to go and

885
00:31:43,350 --> 00:31:40,880
listen to the vocalization of a bearded

886
00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:43,360
seal it's one of the most extraordinary

887
00:31:46,470 --> 00:31:44,960
sounds on this planet

888
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:46,480
and it sounds like it couldn't even come

889
00:31:50,710 --> 00:31:48,559
from earth it sounds like what you might

890
00:31:52,630 --> 00:31:50,720
imagine the soundtrack to a marvin the

891
00:31:54,630 --> 00:31:52,640
martian cartoon might be

892
00:31:56,950 --> 00:31:54,640
and and that animal is in the high

893
00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:56,960
arctic on the very northern tips of

894
00:32:01,509 --> 00:31:58,559
alaska and

895
00:32:03,190 --> 00:32:01,519
and off of you know greenland and if you

896
00:32:05,590 --> 00:32:03,200
listen then to the sound of a weddle

897
00:32:07,590 --> 00:32:05,600
seal which is an antarctic seal the two

898
00:32:09,509 --> 00:32:07,600
will never meet they will never cross

899
00:32:12,710 --> 00:32:09,519
the equator and interact but it's

900
00:32:14,950 --> 00:32:12,720
amazing how similar their vocalizations

901
00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:14,960
are weddel seals will also produce

902
00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:16,480
sounds that seem like they couldn't

903
00:32:21,830 --> 00:32:19,440
possibly be coming from an animal it

904
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:21,840
must be coming from a ray gun

905
00:32:27,029 --> 00:32:24,240
um and so what does it mean that these

906
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:27,039
two seal species that are you know

907
00:32:30,310 --> 00:32:28,559
millions of years separated in

908
00:32:32,549 --> 00:32:30,320
evolutionary lineage

909
00:32:35,509 --> 00:32:32,559
are sort of acoustic cousins in their

910
00:32:37,750 --> 00:32:35,519
icy bays so i would say that the weddle

911
00:32:40,149 --> 00:32:37,760
seals and the bearded seals are perhaps

912
00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:40,159
the most interesting animals to listen

913
00:32:43,029 --> 00:32:41,600
to

914
00:32:44,549 --> 00:32:43,039
i will definitely link those sounds in

915
00:32:46,230 --> 00:32:44,559
the description so people can go and

916
00:32:48,710 --> 00:32:46,240
listen to them and i'll do that right

917
00:32:50,149 --> 00:32:48,720
after our talk as well ah wonderful good

918
00:32:52,389 --> 00:32:50,159
good good

919
00:32:54,070 --> 00:32:52,399
uh you you talked about uh in in other

920
00:32:55,669 --> 00:32:54,080
places understanding sound through

921
00:32:57,029 --> 00:32:55,679
experience and how your dad's love of

922
00:32:58,950 --> 00:32:57,039
classical music helps you kind of

923
00:33:00,789 --> 00:32:58,960
appreciate sound and in the movie i

924
00:33:02,870 --> 00:33:00,799
really loved uh the the human touch the

925
00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:02,880
moments where i got to watch

926
00:33:05,590 --> 00:33:04,240
all of you guys kind of listening to

927
00:33:08,310 --> 00:33:05,600
those sounds and closing your eyes and

928
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:08,320
really experience in the moment um

929
00:33:12,389 --> 00:33:10,640
and it reminded me of in in the movie

930
00:33:14,630 --> 00:33:12,399
arrival the research study in the kind

931
00:33:16,070 --> 00:33:14,640
of e.t language she she's affected by

932
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:16,080
the language she's studying i think it's

933
00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:17,760
called the sapi award

934
00:33:21,909 --> 00:33:20,240
hypothesis and i wanted to ask how your

935
00:33:25,190 --> 00:33:21,919
research has affected you and if you

936
00:33:27,029 --> 00:33:25,200
dream maybe in whoops now

937
00:33:30,149 --> 00:33:27,039
um

938
00:33:31,669 --> 00:33:30,159
my research has very much affected me

939
00:33:36,549 --> 00:33:31,679
i am

940
00:33:38,870 --> 00:33:36,559
naturalist and biologists in that

941
00:33:40,789 --> 00:33:38,880
all of my hypotheses are driven by

942
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:40,799
observations first

943
00:33:46,630 --> 00:33:43,600
and then i develop studies to answer

944
00:33:48,070 --> 00:33:46,640
those questions which means

945
00:33:50,830 --> 00:33:48,080
i don't

946
00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:50,840
go out into the natural world with an

947
00:33:56,149 --> 00:33:52,480
expectation

948
00:33:58,710 --> 00:33:56,159
i i'd spend a lot of time observing

949
00:33:59,990 --> 00:33:58,720
and that is very much something that i

950
00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:00,000
learned from my family from my

951
00:34:04,789 --> 00:34:03,600
stepfather um how how to be a good

952
00:34:05,509 --> 00:34:04,799
listener

953
00:34:10,069 --> 00:34:05,519
and

954
00:34:12,230 --> 00:34:10,079
it was the process of listening to music

955
00:34:14,550 --> 00:34:12,240
that taught me how to listen to whales

956
00:34:15,909 --> 00:34:14,560
and then in the

957
00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:15,919
over a decade now that i've been

958
00:34:20,550 --> 00:34:18,399
listening to whales i found that i have

959
00:34:22,790 --> 00:34:20,560
learned how to listen to other things in

960
00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:22,800
a way that i did not expect

961
00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:25,200
um i hear subtlety

962
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:27,359
that i didn't hear before i spent so

963
00:34:31,190 --> 00:34:29,440
much time with headphones on listening

964
00:34:35,430 --> 00:34:31,200
to things underwater

965
00:34:39,030 --> 00:34:35,440
and i very rarely hear silence

966
00:34:41,909 --> 00:34:39,040
because the world is very rarely quiet

967
00:34:43,589 --> 00:34:41,919
and and that's something that i learned

968
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:43,599
from listening to whales that it isn't

969
00:34:47,750 --> 00:34:45,200
just about listening to the sounds that

970
00:34:50,310 --> 00:34:47,760
they make it is listening to the pauses

971
00:34:53,669 --> 00:34:50,320
in between the sounds that they make

972
00:34:54,869 --> 00:34:53,679
and so i don't dream in whoops anymore

973
00:34:58,150 --> 00:34:54,879
i used to

974
00:35:00,310 --> 00:34:58,160
and when i'm in the field i certainly

975
00:35:02,150 --> 00:35:00,320
i dream i dream

976
00:35:03,430 --> 00:35:02,160
about the sounds and i dream about the

977
00:35:05,190 --> 00:35:03,440
ocean

978
00:35:06,390 --> 00:35:05,200
what i dream about

979
00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:06,400
is

980
00:35:11,910 --> 00:35:09,680
whales that are impossibly big

981
00:35:13,750 --> 00:35:11,920
larger than houses bigger than the

982
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:13,760
empire state building

983
00:35:19,190 --> 00:35:16,320
that are in our world so i have this

984
00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:19,200
recurring dream of these giant whales

985
00:35:22,470 --> 00:35:20,480
that are

986
00:35:23,430 --> 00:35:22,480
are swimming through

987
00:35:26,310 --> 00:35:23,440
sort of

988
00:35:28,870 --> 00:35:26,320
city streets that are now oceans and

989
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:28,880
as if to say like this is how large this

990
00:35:33,430 --> 00:35:31,680
animal's existence actually is as big as

991
00:35:35,750 --> 00:35:33,440
they are in the ocean

992
00:35:36,790 --> 00:35:35,760
the essence of them is actually much

993
00:35:37,910 --> 00:35:36,800
much

994
00:35:39,750 --> 00:35:37,920
bigger

995
00:35:40,710 --> 00:35:39,760
and you can figure that out if you

996
00:35:42,790 --> 00:35:40,720
listen

997
00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:42,800
and so you can actually begin to get the

998
00:35:46,790 --> 00:35:44,400
scale of the animal

999
00:35:49,030 --> 00:35:46,800
by listening to it rather than looking

1000
00:35:50,790 --> 00:35:49,040
at it and so i think that being able to

1001
00:35:53,990 --> 00:35:50,800
listen to these animals gives me greater

1002
00:35:59,030 --> 00:35:54,790
for

1003
00:36:00,470 --> 00:35:59,040
thank you i i really hope that one day

1004
00:36:01,990 --> 00:36:00,480
someone kind of takes your description

1005
00:36:03,829 --> 00:36:02,000
there and kind of makes a visual so you

1006
00:36:07,030 --> 00:36:03,839
can see that that would be a really cool

1007
00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:07,040
you know painting or cg kind of escape

1008
00:36:13,510 --> 00:36:10,720
yeah yeah that's a great idea

1009
00:36:15,589 --> 00:36:13,520
so wales really evolved to build

1010
00:36:17,349 --> 00:36:15,599
relationships in the dark and in a real

1011
00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:17,359
figurative sense humanity is kind of

1012
00:36:19,670 --> 00:36:18,720
similar you know we come into this world

1013
00:36:21,109 --> 00:36:19,680
in the dark and we're all kind of

1014
00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:21,119
putting our faith in other people when

1015
00:36:26,310 --> 00:36:24,240
we you know make connections uh so based

1016
00:36:27,990 --> 00:36:26,320
on your research i wanted to ask if you

1017
00:36:29,910 --> 00:36:28,000
think there are lessons that humanity

1018
00:36:31,589 --> 00:36:29,920
can can learn from wales and if you

1019
00:36:33,349 --> 00:36:31,599
think that nature's more about survival

1020
00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:33,359
of the fittest or if it's more about

1021
00:36:37,990 --> 00:36:36,000
cooperation

1022
00:36:41,349 --> 00:36:38,000
um i'll answer the latter question first

1023
00:36:42,390 --> 00:36:41,359
i think it is about both i think that we

1024
00:36:44,470 --> 00:36:42,400
it

1025
00:36:46,870 --> 00:36:44,480
nature is complex

1026
00:36:49,829 --> 00:36:46,880
and in some cases it is survival of the

1027
00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:49,839
fittest and strong survive and in other

1028
00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:51,520
species and other contexts it is the

1029
00:36:55,270 --> 00:36:53,440
cooperative that survive

1030
00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:55,280
and i think that it is important to

1031
00:36:59,270 --> 00:36:58,560
recognize that natural laws are varied

1032
00:37:01,270 --> 00:36:59,280
and

1033
00:37:03,349 --> 00:37:01,280
that there is no one single thing that

1034
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:03,359
applies to everything

1035
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:05,520
i mean even even gravity has its

1036
00:37:10,550 --> 00:37:07,440
limitations underwater you can defy it

1037
00:37:14,069 --> 00:37:10,560
with buoyancy and

1038
00:37:16,069 --> 00:37:14,079
so i i think that it is important to

1039
00:37:18,230 --> 00:37:16,079
recognize that

1040
00:37:20,710 --> 00:37:18,240
there is no black and white answer to

1041
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:20,720
any question about nature

1042
00:37:23,829 --> 00:37:22,400
and maybe that's the lesson that i have

1043
00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:23,839
learned from wales

1044
00:37:29,589 --> 00:37:27,040
is that it is okay to not know

1045
00:37:31,430 --> 00:37:29,599
not knowing something doesn't make it

1046
00:37:33,510 --> 00:37:31,440
lesser than

1047
00:37:36,390 --> 00:37:33,520
something being ordinary doesn't mean

1048
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:36,400
that it's not also extraordinary and

1049
00:37:41,030 --> 00:37:38,400
that it is not always the exception to

1050
00:37:43,829 --> 00:37:41,040
the rule that is interesting

1051
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:43,839
sometimes it is simply being that is

1052
00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:45,599
interesting

1053
00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:48,640
and i i worry sometimes that we spend so

1054
00:37:55,030 --> 00:37:51,760
much time trying to

1055
00:37:57,030 --> 00:37:55,040
be special and unique and different

1056
00:37:59,589 --> 00:37:57,040
and to stand out

1057
00:38:02,829 --> 00:37:59,599
that that becomes more important than

1058
00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:02,839
the ability to simply gloriously

1059
00:38:06,630 --> 00:38:04,640
be and

1060
00:38:09,910 --> 00:38:06,640
humpback whales spend all of their time

1061
00:38:11,670 --> 00:38:09,920
simply gloriously being i mean they're

1062
00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:11,680
out there right now doing exactly what

1063
00:38:17,349 --> 00:38:14,400
they do and and our species finds it

1064
00:38:19,270 --> 00:38:17,359
fascinating when they take a breath

1065
00:38:20,710 --> 00:38:19,280
all they have to do is breathe to be

1066
00:38:23,349 --> 00:38:20,720
impressive

1067
00:38:25,829 --> 00:38:23,359
and i think that we can um

1068
00:38:27,109 --> 00:38:25,839
we can perhaps apply that same thing to

1069
00:38:29,190 --> 00:38:27,119
to each other

1070
00:38:32,630 --> 00:38:29,200
um we do not need

1071
00:38:34,470 --> 00:38:32,640
to do backflips to be extraordinary

1072
00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:34,480
um and we can also be a little bit more

1073
00:38:38,310 --> 00:38:35,839
patient

1074
00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:38,320
and a little bit slower

1075
00:38:43,510 --> 00:38:39,520
and

1076
00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:43,520
necessarily a rush with everything we do

1077
00:38:49,349 --> 00:38:45,359
what i love about spending time with

1078
00:38:52,950 --> 00:38:49,359
whales is i find my heart rate slows

1079
00:38:54,150 --> 00:38:52,960
and and things get quieter and calmer

1080
00:38:55,589 --> 00:38:54,160
and um

1081
00:38:57,270 --> 00:38:55,599
that was certainly something that i hope

1082
00:38:59,430 --> 00:38:57,280
that people could take away from

1083
00:39:01,109 --> 00:38:59,440
spending time with nature and writ large

1084
00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:01,119
whether it's a humpback whale or a robin

1085
00:39:04,630 --> 00:39:03,520
in your backyard that taking time to be

1086
00:39:09,990 --> 00:39:04,640
present

1087
00:39:13,349 --> 00:39:11,589
i really love the the effort they put

1088
00:39:15,270 --> 00:39:13,359
into the soundscapes in the film because

1089
00:39:17,109 --> 00:39:15,280
there are all these moments of just

1090
00:39:19,829 --> 00:39:17,119
silence and quietness of you all out on

1091
00:39:21,349 --> 00:39:19,839
the ocean and it really immerses me in

1092
00:39:23,270 --> 00:39:21,359
essentially what you described there you

1093
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:23,280
know um it's always better to go outside

1094
00:39:27,430 --> 00:39:24,720
but if you happen to be watching a movie

1095
00:39:29,589 --> 00:39:27,440
it's good that they included it

1096
00:39:31,109 --> 00:39:29,599
yeah yeah that was really really

1097
00:39:33,109 --> 00:39:31,119
important you know drew the director of

1098
00:39:35,349 --> 00:39:33,119
the film he has become a dear dear

1099
00:39:37,030 --> 00:39:35,359
friend um he spent a lot of time with me

1100
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:37,040
in alaska before he started filming so

1101
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:38,720
he came up there with me and

1102
00:39:43,510 --> 00:39:41,440
spent some time in the summer and

1103
00:39:44,950 --> 00:39:43,520
he was just blown away i remember him

1104
00:39:46,950 --> 00:39:44,960
running around this little island that

1105
00:39:48,550 --> 00:39:46,960
we were on just giddy

1106
00:39:49,910 --> 00:39:48,560
at the sounds and he's like i can't

1107
00:39:51,910 --> 00:39:49,920
believe you can hear a whale breathing

1108
00:39:53,190 --> 00:39:51,920
from two miles away he's like i can't

1109
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:53,200
believe that you can hear an eagle

1110
00:39:56,950 --> 00:39:54,960
calling from a mile away he's like i

1111
00:39:58,069 --> 00:39:56,960
can't believe how much you can hear

1112
00:40:03,510 --> 00:39:58,079
and

1113
00:40:06,069 --> 00:40:03,520
devoted his efforts to making sure

1114
00:40:08,790 --> 00:40:06,079
that that was translated in the film

1115
00:40:11,829 --> 00:40:08,800
um and and i think i certainly know that

1116
00:40:13,270 --> 00:40:11,839
that changed him as a listener um and my

1117
00:40:14,710 --> 00:40:13,280
hope is that the people who would watch

1118
00:40:16,950 --> 00:40:14,720
the film that it would it would also

1119
00:40:18,870 --> 00:40:16,960
change them as listeners

1120
00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:18,880
yeah absolutely speaking for myself i

1121
00:40:22,230 --> 00:40:20,960
can say it did i i have the uh i don't

1122
00:40:25,190 --> 00:40:22,240
know if you can see it there i have the

1123
00:40:26,550 --> 00:40:25,200
whoop call on my on my wrist

1124
00:40:28,390 --> 00:40:26,560
i thought that was a really beautiful

1125
00:40:29,510 --> 00:40:28,400
kind of you know the whales yelling i am

1126
00:40:31,910 --> 00:40:29,520
to each other i thought that was a

1127
00:40:33,670 --> 00:40:31,920
really profound kind of moment and i

1128
00:40:34,630 --> 00:40:33,680
wanted to have that around to look at

1129
00:40:35,589 --> 00:40:34,640
you know

1130
00:40:38,230 --> 00:40:35,599
ah

1131
00:40:39,670 --> 00:40:38,240
that's extraordinary and and i agree i

1132
00:40:41,190 --> 00:40:39,680
think this concept that nature is

1133
00:40:42,950 --> 00:40:41,200
declaring itself

1134
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:42,960
and that we also have the right to

1135
00:40:46,790 --> 00:40:45,359
declare ourselves um and i also love the

1136
00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:46,800
fact that nature can declare itself

1137
00:40:49,510 --> 00:40:48,000
quietly

1138
00:40:51,270 --> 00:40:49,520
um yeah

1139
00:40:54,550 --> 00:40:51,280
yeah so that's really that's really

1140
00:40:56,550 --> 00:40:54,560
wonderful it's really really wonderful

1141
00:40:58,150 --> 00:40:56,560
the the film opens with uh this quote

1142
00:41:00,069 --> 00:40:58,160
from charles bowden i hope i'm saying

1143
00:41:01,910 --> 00:41:00,079
this renamed right there it says we must

1144
00:41:03,750 --> 00:41:01,920
keep the beasts obey and in their place

1145
00:41:05,589 --> 00:41:03,760
so we seldom ask them questions lest

1146
00:41:08,390 --> 00:41:05,599
they answer and terrify us by smashing

1147
00:41:10,630 --> 00:41:08,400
our beliefs there are at least 9 million

1148
00:41:13,030 --> 00:41:10,640
species on the planet 2.2 million in the

1149
00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:13,040
ocean roughly um and we're finding more

1150
00:41:16,950 --> 00:41:14,640
and more every day in some of the most

1151
00:41:18,870 --> 00:41:16,960
extreme places we never thought possible

1152
00:41:20,950 --> 00:41:18,880
finding complex cultures and systems in

1153
00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:20,960
places we never ever thought to look

1154
00:41:24,790 --> 00:41:22,640
so i wanted to ask do you think that

1155
00:41:29,670 --> 00:41:24,800
kind of science is breaking our idea of

1156
00:41:34,150 --> 00:41:31,270
well i hope not

1157
00:41:36,790 --> 00:41:34,160
i would hope that science isn't breaking

1158
00:41:38,150 --> 00:41:36,800
life as we know it into pieces although

1159
00:41:39,670 --> 00:41:38,160
science does have a tendency to take

1160
00:41:41,589 --> 00:41:39,680
things apart and forget to put them back

1161
00:41:43,750 --> 00:41:41,599
together sometimes

1162
00:41:46,069 --> 00:41:43,760
i would hope that what science is doing

1163
00:41:48,710 --> 00:41:46,079
is making us aware that the world is a

1164
00:41:51,589 --> 00:41:48,720
richer place it's giving us an

1165
00:41:53,190 --> 00:41:51,599
opportunity to see more and do more and

1166
00:41:56,069 --> 00:41:53,200
know more

1167
00:41:58,470 --> 00:41:56,079
and and to cultivate reverence and

1168
00:41:59,510 --> 00:41:58,480
understanding and appreciation

1169
00:42:02,230 --> 00:41:59,520
um

1170
00:42:05,910 --> 00:42:02,240
does that perhaps mean sometimes that we

1171
00:42:06,950 --> 00:42:05,920
we untie a and not that was a worldview

1172
00:42:09,430 --> 00:42:06,960
sure

1173
00:42:12,309 --> 00:42:09,440
but science should if nothing else give

1174
00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:12,319
us the opportunity to change our mind

1175
00:42:16,710 --> 00:42:14,640
and to acknowledge that there is more

1176
00:42:19,349 --> 00:42:16,720
out there than we currently know but i

1177
00:42:24,550 --> 00:42:19,359
think that that is as as building a

1178
00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:26,950
i i love how richard feynman is is kind

1179
00:42:31,430 --> 00:42:29,680
of as curious as a child and ever since

1180
00:42:33,349 --> 00:42:31,440
seeing him be like that i i felt the

1181
00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:33,359
scientists should be you know as curious

1182
00:42:37,109 --> 00:42:35,359
as children when going into the world uh

1183
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:37,119
you've mentioned curiosity a few times

1184
00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:38,640
during this conversation so i wanted to

1185
00:42:44,470 --> 00:42:42,240
ask if if you maybe had a little more to

1186
00:42:45,829 --> 00:42:44,480
say about it about how do you choose in

1187
00:42:48,069 --> 00:42:45,839
a complex world

1188
00:42:50,630 --> 00:42:48,079
oh absolutely um

1189
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:50,640
curiosity i think is is part of the of

1190
00:42:55,349 --> 00:42:52,480
what it means to be human

1191
00:42:57,750 --> 00:42:55,359
and i mean children are curious and and

1192
00:42:59,829 --> 00:42:57,760
then we again they get busy

1193
00:43:01,510 --> 00:42:59,839
and curiosity i think in a lot of ways

1194
00:43:02,870 --> 00:43:01,520
is easy to cultivate you just have to

1195
00:43:05,190 --> 00:43:02,880
give it time

1196
00:43:06,390 --> 00:43:05,200
you know write a list instead of

1197
00:43:07,589 --> 00:43:06,400
saying i don't know what questions to

1198
00:43:10,470 --> 00:43:07,599
ask for i don't know what i'm interested

1199
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:10,480
in spend five minutes writing a list of

1200
00:43:15,349 --> 00:43:14,400
what you don't know and watch curiosity

1201
00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:15,359
grow

1202
00:43:18,550 --> 00:43:16,720
when you can figure out what you don't

1203
00:43:20,550 --> 00:43:18,560
know suddenly there's an interest in

1204
00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:20,560
figuring out what you can and answering

1205
00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:22,480
those questions

1206
00:43:26,309 --> 00:43:24,560
and and i think that curiosity is

1207
00:43:27,990 --> 00:43:26,319
essential for science but it's also

1208
00:43:29,430 --> 00:43:28,000
essential for art

1209
00:43:32,470 --> 00:43:29,440
innovation

1210
00:43:35,030 --> 00:43:32,480
relationship building

1211
00:43:37,190 --> 00:43:35,040
for social harmony if you can have a

1212
00:43:38,150 --> 00:43:37,200
curiosity about something it means that

1213
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:38,160
you can

1214
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:40,560
that you you have a desire to understand

1215
00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:43,839
it that there's an interest in it so i i

1216
00:43:47,109 --> 00:43:45,040
think

1217
00:43:49,910 --> 00:43:47,119
again starting with what you don't know

1218
00:43:51,109 --> 00:43:49,920
is a great way to cultivate curiosity

1219
00:43:52,550 --> 00:43:51,119
and um

1220
00:43:54,550 --> 00:43:52,560
and now and then from there it just

1221
00:43:56,309 --> 00:43:54,560
explodes and also starting with what you

1222
00:43:58,150 --> 00:43:56,319
don't know instead of seeking the answer

1223
00:43:59,990 --> 00:43:58,160
that somebody else gives you try and

1224
00:44:01,430 --> 00:44:00,000
make one up

1225
00:44:03,430 --> 00:44:01,440
don't look up the answer to your

1226
00:44:04,390 --> 00:44:03,440
questions discover the answer to your

1227
00:44:08,950 --> 00:44:04,400
questions

1228
00:44:10,390 --> 00:44:08,960
so instead of saying you know

1229
00:44:13,589 --> 00:44:10,400
i don't know

1230
00:44:15,750 --> 00:44:13,599
grass grows

1231
00:44:17,670 --> 00:44:15,760
don't don't google it

1232
00:44:19,589 --> 00:44:17,680
go outside and look at the grass like

1233
00:44:20,630 --> 00:44:19,599
pull up a glade of rest a blade of grass

1234
00:44:22,150 --> 00:44:20,640
think about everything you've ever

1235
00:44:24,309 --> 00:44:22,160
learned and what make what might make

1236
00:44:26,230 --> 00:44:24,319
grass grow or if you say i don't know

1237
00:44:28,150 --> 00:44:26,240
what birds are in my backyard

1238
00:44:29,910 --> 00:44:28,160
don't look at a bird list

1239
00:44:32,150 --> 00:44:29,920
go outside and listen count how many

1240
00:44:33,910 --> 00:44:32,160
birds you see see what you hear

1241
00:44:35,270 --> 00:44:33,920
so come up with questions you don't know

1242
00:44:38,630 --> 00:44:35,280
the answer to and then be the one who

1243
00:44:43,109 --> 00:44:40,950
curiosity is kind of almost

1244
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:43,119
the engine of the human race i think you

1245
00:44:45,910 --> 00:44:44,720
know whether it's technology or any of

1246
00:44:47,589 --> 00:44:45,920
the other areas you mentioned it

1247
00:44:49,270 --> 00:44:47,599
certainly drives us and maybe it's what

1248
00:44:52,309 --> 00:44:49,280
took us from you know huddled around a

1249
00:44:53,910 --> 00:44:52,319
fire in a cave to the world we see today

1250
00:44:55,349 --> 00:44:53,920
and and that carries on at the end of

1251
00:44:57,030 --> 00:44:55,359
the film you said that

1252
00:44:58,630 --> 00:44:57,040
it's so hard to interpret the language

1253
00:45:00,790 --> 00:44:58,640
of the natural world to

1254
00:45:03,190 --> 00:45:00,800
listen and understand what it's saying

1255
00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:03,200
to itself and and that's that is of the

1256
00:45:06,710 --> 00:45:05,040
same proportion of pointless satellite

1257
00:45:08,950 --> 00:45:06,720
skyward and listening for a sign from

1258
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:08,960
outer space and i wanted to ask uh with

1259
00:45:12,150 --> 00:45:10,640
the launch of the james webb telescope

1260
00:45:13,910 --> 00:45:12,160
what are your hopes for science in terms

1261
00:45:16,069 --> 00:45:13,920
of finding and understanding other forms

1262
00:45:17,510 --> 00:45:16,079
of life and our place in the universe

1263
00:45:19,670 --> 00:45:17,520
and do you think we're alone in that

1264
00:45:20,950 --> 00:45:19,680
regard or that intelligent life exists

1265
00:45:23,109 --> 00:45:20,960
elsewhere

1266
00:45:24,550 --> 00:45:23,119
oh that's a big question

1267
00:45:26,710 --> 00:45:24,560
i mean you just asked me what all of my

1268
00:45:29,030 --> 00:45:26,720
hopes for science were and whether or

1269
00:45:31,270 --> 00:45:29,040
not we were alone in the universe

1270
00:45:32,630 --> 00:45:31,280
i mean i'm still drinking my morning tea

1271
00:45:35,750 --> 00:45:32,640
um

1272
00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:35,760
i mean my hopes for science is that

1273
00:45:40,790 --> 00:45:38,240
science is integrated that science

1274
00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:40,800
becomes a part of society

1275
00:45:45,510 --> 00:45:43,520
and that science finds a better way at

1276
00:45:48,309 --> 00:45:45,520
communicating with people who don't

1277
00:45:51,190 --> 00:45:48,319
identify as scientists that way when we

1278
00:45:53,109 --> 00:45:51,200
learn about what is out there

1279
00:45:54,790 --> 00:45:53,119
people care to understand they care

1280
00:45:55,990 --> 00:45:54,800
about it

1281
00:45:58,390 --> 00:45:56,000
um

1282
00:46:00,069 --> 00:45:58,400
i i in terms of are we alone in the

1283
00:46:02,150 --> 00:46:00,079
universe

1284
00:46:04,790 --> 00:46:02,160
that isn't both a scientific question

1285
00:46:05,990 --> 00:46:04,800
and an existential one

1286
00:46:07,990 --> 00:46:06,000
so

1287
00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:08,000
no i don't think that we are alone in

1288
00:46:12,710 --> 00:46:11,040
the universe i don't necessarily know

1289
00:46:14,309 --> 00:46:12,720
whether or not it means that there is

1290
00:46:15,990 --> 00:46:14,319
another planet out there with

1291
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:16,000
intelligent life i think that that's

1292
00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:18,079
likely it's probable

1293
00:46:21,430 --> 00:46:20,079
um it's not my field of study but i

1294
00:46:23,430 --> 00:46:21,440
certainly have

1295
00:46:25,270 --> 00:46:23,440
i have a curiosity about that and

1296
00:46:27,270 --> 00:46:25,280
interest in it and i would have a hope

1297
00:46:29,510 --> 00:46:27,280
that it was true

1298
00:46:31,510 --> 00:46:29,520
um i also

1299
00:46:34,069 --> 00:46:31,520
think that there is a lot of life here

1300
00:46:35,829 --> 00:46:34,079
on this planet that we don't understand

1301
00:46:38,150 --> 00:46:35,839
and i would hope that sometimes we would

1302
00:46:39,750 --> 00:46:38,160
point those satellites inward

1303
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:39,760
and ask ourselves

1304
00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:42,960
what we can learn right here and

1305
00:46:48,309 --> 00:46:45,920
and my hope for science is that science

1306
00:46:49,990 --> 00:46:48,319
becomes a language that everyone can

1307
00:46:51,510 --> 00:46:50,000
understand i mean we talk about

1308
00:46:54,069 --> 00:46:51,520
interpreting languages of the natural

1309
00:46:56,550 --> 00:46:54,079
world or interpreting the language of

1310
00:46:58,710 --> 00:46:56,560
of species beyond this world

1311
00:47:00,309 --> 00:46:58,720
what do we do about interpreting

1312
00:47:02,470 --> 00:47:00,319
our own language

1313
00:47:04,710 --> 00:47:02,480
i mean we are not talking to each other

1314
00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:04,720
as a society even though we are speaking

1315
00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:06,400
the same language

1316
00:47:11,589 --> 00:47:08,880
how can we take curiosity how can we

1317
00:47:14,390 --> 00:47:11,599
take human experience to cultivate a

1318
00:47:17,270 --> 00:47:14,400
more compassionate world how can we take

1319
00:47:20,390 --> 00:47:17,280
what we observe in nature and share it

1320
00:47:23,829 --> 00:47:20,400
in a way that anyone can understand it

1321
00:47:26,470 --> 00:47:23,839
so how do we how do we find the essence

1322
00:47:29,030 --> 00:47:26,480
of communication and get better at it so

1323
00:47:31,190 --> 00:47:29,040
that science can be a tool not just for

1324
00:47:33,750 --> 00:47:31,200
understanding the other but also perhaps

1325
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:33,760
a tool for understanding ourselves

1326
00:47:37,270 --> 00:47:35,280
and how can we get better at sharing

1327
00:47:39,710 --> 00:47:37,280
things that's my hope for science is

1328
00:47:41,510 --> 00:47:39,720
that we become better communicators both

1329
00:47:42,630 --> 00:47:41,520
inter-specifically and interests

1330
00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:42,640
specifically

1331
00:47:46,549 --> 00:47:44,160
so let's communicate amongst our own

1332
00:47:48,230 --> 00:47:46,559
species and then and then also be able

1333
00:47:49,030 --> 00:47:48,240
to be better listeners to

1334
00:47:53,510 --> 00:47:49,040
to

1335
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:53,520
on on the subject of kind of

1336
00:47:56,630 --> 00:47:55,200
communicating with our own species do

1337
00:47:57,990 --> 00:47:56,640
you have any advice for young people

1338
00:48:00,390 --> 00:47:58,000
especially young girls i noticed that

1339
00:48:01,910 --> 00:48:00,400
your team was all female in the movie uh

1340
00:48:03,510 --> 00:48:01,920
who wanted to go into science and maybe

1341
00:48:05,670 --> 00:48:03,520
do work like you

1342
00:48:09,990 --> 00:48:05,680
yeah um

1343
00:48:13,270 --> 00:48:10,000
oh advice i mean my my advice is is is

1344
00:48:16,390 --> 00:48:13,280
find a group of people that you love

1345
00:48:18,069 --> 00:48:16,400
and do what you want to do find a way

1346
00:48:19,990 --> 00:48:18,079
now i know that that's very esoteric

1347
00:48:21,109 --> 00:48:20,000
advice so like some really tangible

1348
00:48:23,430 --> 00:48:21,119
advice

1349
00:48:25,910 --> 00:48:23,440
is find an organization that is willing

1350
00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:25,920
to pay you to do good work you know get

1351
00:48:32,950 --> 00:48:29,280
a good education be curious read books

1352
00:48:35,589 --> 00:48:32,960
um read published literature read op-eds

1353
00:48:36,470 --> 00:48:35,599
you know devour the knowledge

1354
00:48:37,990 --> 00:48:36,480
like

1355
00:48:39,990 --> 00:48:38,000
and then the other piece of advice that

1356
00:48:41,670 --> 00:48:40,000
i would say for anyone that wants to do

1357
00:48:43,750 --> 00:48:41,680
science particularly for young women

1358
00:48:45,829 --> 00:48:43,760
that want to do science

1359
00:48:48,549 --> 00:48:45,839
go there

1360
00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:48,559
it isn't about following a traditional

1361
00:48:51,990 --> 00:48:50,640
path like yes get a degree in biology if

1362
00:48:53,190 --> 00:48:52,000
you want to go to graduate school if

1363
00:48:54,950 --> 00:48:53,200
that speaks to you and that's a path

1364
00:48:56,549 --> 00:48:54,960
that works for you do that get an

1365
00:48:58,230 --> 00:48:56,559
education but

1366
00:48:59,910 --> 00:48:58,240
if you want to understand the natural

1367
00:49:00,870 --> 00:48:59,920
world and you want to be successful in

1368
00:49:04,710 --> 00:49:00,880
science

1369
00:49:07,190 --> 00:49:04,720
go there move to alaska

1370
00:49:09,270 --> 00:49:07,200
spend your mornings before you do the

1371
00:49:11,190 --> 00:49:09,280
job that's going to help support you as

1372
00:49:12,870 --> 00:49:11,200
a human spend your morning sitting on

1373
00:49:14,150 --> 00:49:12,880
the beach looking at the waves and

1374
00:49:17,510 --> 00:49:14,160
listening

1375
00:49:19,190 --> 00:49:17,520
if you want to if you want to study

1376
00:49:21,109 --> 00:49:19,200
animals go there

1377
00:49:22,870 --> 00:49:21,119
go and listen you don't necessarily have

1378
00:49:24,630 --> 00:49:22,880
to go there to be a biologist you can go

1379
00:49:27,349 --> 00:49:24,640
to be an observer

1380
00:49:29,430 --> 00:49:27,359
and then find someone you trust and tell

1381
00:49:31,349 --> 00:49:29,440
them what you hear find someone you love

1382
00:49:33,910 --> 00:49:31,359
and tell them your story help to

1383
00:49:35,910 --> 00:49:33,920
cultivate a community find a mentor and

1384
00:49:37,910 --> 00:49:35,920
don't take any mentor

1385
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:37,920
take a mentor that resonates with you

1386
00:49:42,069 --> 00:49:40,079
work with people that appreciate you

1387
00:49:44,309 --> 00:49:42,079
acknowledge that you have strengths and

1388
00:49:46,870 --> 00:49:44,319
if someone else is not seeing them

1389
00:49:49,910 --> 00:49:46,880
perhaps they aren't the best fit for you

1390
00:49:51,990 --> 00:49:49,920
and raise up other women

1391
00:49:55,030 --> 00:49:52,000
when a woman does something that is

1392
00:49:57,750 --> 00:49:55,040
amazing or something that is admirable

1393
00:50:00,150 --> 00:49:57,760
or something that is humble

1394
00:50:01,349 --> 00:50:00,160
loud that give that a platform and give

1395
00:50:03,589 --> 00:50:01,359
that a voice

1396
00:50:06,150 --> 00:50:03,599
give a voice to the the people and the

1397
00:50:07,510 --> 00:50:06,160
women and the allies that you respect

1398
00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:07,520
and so sometimes i think the most

1399
00:50:10,870 --> 00:50:08,880
successful thing that we can do to

1400
00:50:12,470 --> 00:50:10,880
cultivate a more diverse group of

1401
00:50:14,230 --> 00:50:12,480
scientific voices

1402
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:14,240
is to talk less

1403
00:50:17,430 --> 00:50:16,000
spend less time talking about yourself

1404
00:50:19,829 --> 00:50:17,440
and more time talking about somebody

1405
00:50:23,190 --> 00:50:19,839
else find people you admire and emulate

1406
00:50:24,470 --> 00:50:23,200
them and acknowledge them publicly and

1407
00:50:26,309 --> 00:50:24,480
loudly

1408
00:50:28,230 --> 00:50:26,319
the more that we can acknowledge diverse

1409
00:50:30,309 --> 00:50:28,240
voices the voices of women the voices of

1410
00:50:33,910 --> 00:50:30,319
indigenous people the voices of people

1411
00:50:35,510 --> 00:50:33,920
of color the more that we can raise up

1412
00:50:38,069 --> 00:50:35,520
the idea that there is a diversity of

1413
00:50:40,069 --> 00:50:38,079
perspectives that will cultivate a

1414
00:50:43,270 --> 00:50:40,079
opportunity and a culture of science

1415
00:50:46,069 --> 00:50:43,280
that is worth participating in

1416
00:50:48,069 --> 00:50:46,079
so that was a bit of a rant but

1417
00:50:51,349 --> 00:50:48,079
no i loved it that's uh

1418
00:50:53,190 --> 00:50:51,359
you're my people michelle i'll say that

1419
00:50:54,630 --> 00:50:53,200
but before we finish up let's just go

1420
00:50:57,670 --> 00:50:54,640
through some listener questions uh

1421
00:50:59,430 --> 00:50:57,680
nathan asked do whale's dream

1422
00:51:02,150 --> 00:50:59,440
oh i don't know

1423
00:51:06,790 --> 00:51:04,470
so that's a complex question this one's

1424
00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:06,800
a little technical

1425
00:51:13,829 --> 00:51:10,960
whales don't sleep like we sleep

1426
00:51:15,670 --> 00:51:13,839
they have something called um

1427
00:51:18,069 --> 00:51:15,680
semi-hemispheric

1428
00:51:19,829 --> 00:51:18,079
sleeping in that whales are voluntary

1429
00:51:21,190 --> 00:51:19,839
breathers this is true for all cetaceans

1430
00:51:22,150 --> 00:51:21,200
so they can't fully go to sleep or they

1431
00:51:24,470 --> 00:51:22,160
would forget to breathe and they would

1432
00:51:25,670 --> 00:51:24,480
drown or suffocate rather so they have

1433
00:51:27,109 --> 00:51:25,680
two sides of their brain and what

1434
00:51:28,470 --> 00:51:27,119
they'll do is they'll put one side of

1435
00:51:30,630 --> 00:51:28,480
their brain to sleep and the other side

1436
00:51:31,829 --> 00:51:30,640
will stay awake to remember to function

1437
00:51:32,870 --> 00:51:31,839
you need to take a breath to stay at the

1438
00:51:34,390 --> 00:51:32,880
surface of the water and things like

1439
00:51:35,670 --> 00:51:34,400
that and then they switch and the other

1440
00:51:36,870 --> 00:51:35,680
side of their brain will go to sleep and

1441
00:51:37,829 --> 00:51:36,880
the other side of their brain will stay

1442
00:51:40,710 --> 00:51:37,839
awake

1443
00:51:42,470 --> 00:51:40,720
um and we know this from um from

1444
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:42,480
scientists that i wish i could remember

1445
00:51:45,349 --> 00:51:44,240
their names right now who have

1446
00:51:47,510 --> 00:51:45,359
done this with dolphins and other

1447
00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:47,520
citations you know they've put

1448
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:49,680
anodes and whatnot on on this patient

1449
00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:52,800
heads and looked at brain activity so

1450
00:51:59,589 --> 00:51:54,640
does the side of the brain that is

1451
00:52:03,990 --> 00:52:01,990
most mammals dream

1452
00:52:05,750 --> 00:52:04,000
so i can't i i would guess that whale

1453
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:05,760
stream so i don't know the answer to

1454
00:52:08,470 --> 00:52:07,440
that but i'll say i hope so and i think

1455
00:52:10,870 --> 00:52:08,480
so

1456
00:52:14,150 --> 00:52:10,880
i i wonder if a whales dreams of you

1457
00:52:15,750 --> 00:52:14,160
really giant swimming around coral reefs

1458
00:52:18,150 --> 00:52:15,760
that's exactly what they're doing

1459
00:52:20,309 --> 00:52:18,160
they're like whose voice was that she

1460
00:52:22,309 --> 00:52:20,319
was calling to me in the night i have to

1461
00:52:24,549 --> 00:52:22,319
find her yeah that's that's definitely

1462
00:52:27,349 --> 00:52:24,559
what the whales are dreaming about

1463
00:52:29,270 --> 00:52:27,359
uh sean cahill asks uh if you could

1464
00:52:30,870 --> 00:52:29,280
share any impressions of the impact of

1465
00:52:33,349 --> 00:52:30,880
increased spindle cells in the oka

1466
00:52:35,750 --> 00:52:33,359
occalimbic brain and observations in

1467
00:52:37,670 --> 00:52:35,760
perceived creation culture is there

1468
00:52:39,349 --> 00:52:37,680
observational evidence for the existence

1469
00:52:41,670 --> 00:52:39,359
of a more complex level of emotional

1470
00:52:43,750 --> 00:52:41,680
communication amongst oral consultations

1471
00:52:47,109 --> 00:52:43,760
than amongst humans

1472
00:52:48,630 --> 00:52:47,119
yes so um this spindle neuron concept is

1473
00:52:50,309 --> 00:52:48,640
one that there is neuron which is

1474
00:52:52,630 --> 00:52:50,319
identified in several different species

1475
00:52:55,430 --> 00:52:52,640
humans being one of them and it has been

1476
00:52:58,390 --> 00:52:55,440
hypothesized that that particular um

1477
00:53:01,910 --> 00:52:58,400
neuron is associated with compassion and

1478
00:53:03,510 --> 00:53:01,920
with altruism and we have seen this you

1479
00:53:05,349 --> 00:53:03,520
know spindle neurons in the brains of

1480
00:53:07,990 --> 00:53:05,359
humpback whales um and a couple other

1481
00:53:10,309 --> 00:53:08,000
species it is comparatively rare um

1482
00:53:11,829 --> 00:53:10,319
whether or not it's rare because we

1483
00:53:14,470 --> 00:53:11,839
haven't looked or it's rare because it's

1484
00:53:16,790 --> 00:53:14,480
ecologically rare i can't speak to but

1485
00:53:19,109 --> 00:53:16,800
there has been evidence in

1486
00:53:22,150 --> 00:53:19,119
in the humpback whales of

1487
00:53:24,230 --> 00:53:22,160
of what we perceive as altruism um of

1488
00:53:25,589 --> 00:53:24,240
selfless acts and

1489
00:53:27,670 --> 00:53:25,599
and you know there's a really great

1490
00:53:28,790 --> 00:53:27,680
paper about this um

1491
00:53:30,630 --> 00:53:28,800
that

1492
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:30,640
i think bob pittman wrote

1493
00:53:34,870 --> 00:53:32,960
um where there have been many examples

1494
00:53:37,109 --> 00:53:34,880
that that folks have seen over the years

1495
00:53:40,390 --> 00:53:37,119
of humpback whales intervening

1496
00:53:42,069 --> 00:53:40,400
to protect another species so as killer

1497
00:53:43,990 --> 00:53:42,079
whales would come in to try and predate

1498
00:53:46,230 --> 00:53:44,000
something a humpback whale would come

1499
00:53:47,430 --> 00:53:46,240
and get in between them and protect

1500
00:53:49,910 --> 00:53:47,440
either

1501
00:53:51,270 --> 00:53:49,920
i know in one instance it was a sunfish

1502
00:53:52,390 --> 00:53:51,280
that they came in to protect this

1503
00:53:55,510 --> 00:53:52,400
sunfish

1504
00:53:57,990 --> 00:53:55,520
and i can say

1505
00:54:00,470 --> 00:53:58,000
personally

1506
00:54:02,309 --> 00:54:00,480
that i have observed this now i want to

1507
00:54:04,870 --> 00:54:02,319
be very careful about whether or not

1508
00:54:06,710 --> 00:54:04,880
it's compassion because compassion is a

1509
00:54:09,990 --> 00:54:06,720
word that we use to describe humanity

1510
00:54:12,069 --> 00:54:10,000
this is that is a human emotion a human

1511
00:54:15,109 --> 00:54:12,079
action to be compassionate

1512
00:54:16,390 --> 00:54:15,119
whales are not human

1513
00:54:18,069 --> 00:54:16,400
the the

1514
00:54:19,349 --> 00:54:18,079
you can't apply

1515
00:54:25,190 --> 00:54:19,359
our

1516
00:54:26,390 --> 00:54:25,200
to whales it's unfair

1517
00:54:27,670 --> 00:54:26,400
now that doesn't mean that they are

1518
00:54:29,910 --> 00:54:27,680
lesser than

1519
00:54:32,309 --> 00:54:29,920
it likely means that they are they are

1520
00:54:34,470 --> 00:54:32,319
other equal to but other

1521
00:54:36,390 --> 00:54:34,480
that being said though i was on a boat

1522
00:54:39,670 --> 00:54:36,400
in southeast alaska

1523
00:54:41,990 --> 00:54:39,680
and um we were whale watching and

1524
00:54:44,549 --> 00:54:42,000
we saw a group of killer whales that

1525
00:54:46,150 --> 00:54:44,559
were hunting a stellar sea lion

1526
00:54:47,510 --> 00:54:46,160
and there were humpback whales quite far

1527
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:47,520
away you know we had seen humpback

1528
00:54:51,670 --> 00:54:50,240
whales off in the distance and our boat

1529
00:54:54,069 --> 00:54:51,680
we were being very responsible stay very

1530
00:54:55,750 --> 00:54:54,079
far away um but we were watching this

1531
00:54:57,430 --> 00:54:55,760
group of transient killer whales

1532
00:54:58,630 --> 00:54:57,440
attacking the sea lion because that's

1533
00:54:59,589 --> 00:54:58,640
what they eat

1534
00:55:01,750 --> 00:54:59,599
and

1535
00:55:03,190 --> 00:55:01,760
a humpback whale that we know

1536
00:55:05,990 --> 00:55:03,200
very well

1537
00:55:07,670 --> 00:55:06,000
that it's a juno resident whale a whale

1538
00:55:08,710 --> 00:55:07,680
that had been in the community for many

1539
00:55:09,589 --> 00:55:08,720
many years

1540
00:55:11,430 --> 00:55:09,599
um

1541
00:55:14,789 --> 00:55:11,440
spot is that whale's name

1542
00:55:16,309 --> 00:55:14,799
um got in between the killer whales and

1543
00:55:18,549 --> 00:55:16,319
the stellar sea lion

1544
00:55:21,829 --> 00:55:18,559
and then two other humpback whales came

1545
00:55:23,990 --> 00:55:21,839
over and they formed a triangle around

1546
00:55:25,349 --> 00:55:24,000
this stellar sea lion and one of them

1547
00:55:27,589 --> 00:55:25,359
actually rolled over and put the sea

1548
00:55:31,270 --> 00:55:27,599
lion on its belly and began slapping its

1549
00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:31,280
pectoral fins and actively protecting it

1550
00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:32,160
from

1551
00:55:39,349 --> 00:55:37,040
there's not a

1552
00:55:40,789 --> 00:55:39,359
it was incredible it was extraordinary

1553
00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:40,799
and

1554
00:55:44,870 --> 00:55:42,960
there's there's not a lot of reasons or

1555
00:55:47,670 --> 00:55:44,880
things that you can

1556
00:55:50,069 --> 00:55:47,680
say to describe an interaction like that

1557
00:55:51,910 --> 00:55:50,079
other than just to to acknowledge that

1558
00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:51,920
those humpbacks intervened in that

1559
00:55:54,309 --> 00:55:52,960
particular

1560
00:55:57,270 --> 00:55:54,319
ecological

1561
00:55:59,589 --> 00:55:57,280
sequence and the best and most obvious

1562
00:56:02,710 --> 00:55:59,599
explanation is that they were protecting

1563
00:56:05,109 --> 00:56:02,720
that sea lion from being eaten

1564
00:56:06,549 --> 00:56:05,119
whether or not that's an altruistic act

1565
00:56:08,069 --> 00:56:06,559
it certainly seems like it from our

1566
00:56:09,589 --> 00:56:08,079
human perspective

1567
00:56:12,710 --> 00:56:09,599
there's a whole suite of other

1568
00:56:15,030 --> 00:56:12,720
explanations that you could come up with

1569
00:56:19,270 --> 00:56:15,040
but one of them is certainly that that

1570
00:56:21,589 --> 00:56:20,069
that's

1571
00:56:23,109 --> 00:56:21,599
kind of encouraging to know isn't it

1572
00:56:24,950 --> 00:56:23,119
that it might be a natural state of

1573
00:56:26,789 --> 00:56:24,960
things

1574
00:56:28,230 --> 00:56:26,799
yeah although it's not so good for the

1575
00:56:30,870 --> 00:56:28,240
killer whales

1576
00:56:32,710 --> 00:56:30,880
no i guess not yeah so it really depends

1577
00:56:34,390 --> 00:56:32,720
on whose perspective you're taking uh if

1578
00:56:35,990 --> 00:56:34,400
somebody came into my home and refused

1579
00:56:37,990 --> 00:56:36,000
to let me eat my dinner and they took it

1580
00:56:40,069 --> 00:56:38,000
from me i don't think that we would call

1581
00:56:42,150 --> 00:56:40,079
that person altruistic i think we would

1582
00:56:43,349 --> 00:56:42,160
call them a thief and so i think that's

1583
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:43,359
another really important thing to

1584
00:56:47,109 --> 00:56:45,359
remember is that there is no greater

1585
00:56:48,069 --> 00:56:47,119
than in the natural world

1586
00:56:50,549 --> 00:56:48,079
um

1587
00:56:53,430 --> 00:56:50,559
that they're it's it's it's a web it's

1588
00:56:55,670 --> 00:56:53,440
an it's interactive and predators and

1589
00:56:58,470 --> 00:56:55,680
prey is i mean certainly they're like

1590
00:57:00,549 --> 00:56:58,480
killer whales are predators um

1591
00:57:02,470 --> 00:57:00,559
and sea lions are prey

1592
00:57:04,630 --> 00:57:02,480
sea lions are also predators and fish

1593
00:57:06,069 --> 00:57:04,640
are prey would we deny the sea lion the

1594
00:57:07,829 --> 00:57:06,079
fish like

1595
00:57:09,750 --> 00:57:07,839
what does it mean when you think about

1596
00:57:12,870 --> 00:57:09,760
things not from the perspective of good

1597
00:57:17,270 --> 00:57:12,880
or bad or right or wrong um

1598
00:57:19,349 --> 00:57:17,280
but but as as complex as the system is

1599
00:57:21,430 --> 00:57:19,359
so who as humans do we want to have

1600
00:57:23,349 --> 00:57:21,440
compassion for

1601
00:57:25,109 --> 00:57:23,359
so i think um having perspective on that

1602
00:57:26,870 --> 00:57:25,119
one is really important

1603
00:57:28,390 --> 00:57:26,880
i i really love that a discussion about

1604
00:57:30,950 --> 00:57:28,400
whale language has essentially turned

1605
00:57:32,390 --> 00:57:30,960
into a philosophical conversation

1606
00:57:33,990 --> 00:57:32,400
it says a lot about their culture and

1607
00:57:35,670 --> 00:57:34,000
what we're finding out right

1608
00:57:37,430 --> 00:57:35,680
yeah yeah absolutely i think you're

1609
00:57:38,710 --> 00:57:37,440
absolutely right

1610
00:57:39,750 --> 00:57:38,720
benji would like to know if you found

1611
00:57:42,069 --> 00:57:39,760
any

1612
00:57:43,829 --> 00:57:42,079
commonalities between the frequency of

1613
00:57:46,309 --> 00:57:43,839
major or minor musical scales and the

1614
00:57:48,069 --> 00:57:46,319
emotional states of the animal singing

1615
00:57:51,349 --> 00:57:48,079
so i have not done that research but

1616
00:57:52,870 --> 00:57:51,359
some people are um what we have found is

1617
00:57:54,870 --> 00:57:52,880
there's this theory in science called

1618
00:57:57,349 --> 00:57:54,880
motivational structure theory

1619
00:57:58,150 --> 00:57:57,359
and it's the concept that invertebrates

1620
00:57:59,910 --> 00:57:58,160
so

1621
00:58:01,349 --> 00:57:59,920
mammals and birds predominantly is where

1622
00:58:02,710 --> 00:58:01,359
they've looked at this that you can

1623
00:58:04,470 --> 00:58:02,720
actually identify an animal's

1624
00:58:06,230 --> 00:58:04,480
motivational state based on the sounds

1625
00:58:08,470 --> 00:58:06,240
that it makes so if you think about this

1626
00:58:10,870 --> 00:58:08,480
in humans and human human language does

1627
00:58:12,230 --> 00:58:10,880
obey motivational structure laws

1628
00:58:13,589 --> 00:58:12,240
um

1629
00:58:15,750 --> 00:58:13,599
you know you can tell the difference

1630
00:58:18,870 --> 00:58:15,760
between someone who is trying to be

1631
00:58:21,109 --> 00:58:18,880
aggressive and sort of shouting or

1632
00:58:23,589 --> 00:58:21,119
you know ah get away go go go versus

1633
00:58:25,990 --> 00:58:23,599
someone who is trying to appease like oh

1634
00:58:27,589 --> 00:58:26,000
oh that's wonderful oh thank you so much

1635
00:58:29,990 --> 00:58:27,599
and you can hear that in one case my

1636
00:58:32,630 --> 00:58:30,000
voice gets low and

1637
00:58:34,230 --> 00:58:32,640
louder and has some specific qualities

1638
00:58:35,589 --> 00:58:34,240
and in the other my voice gets higher

1639
00:58:36,470 --> 00:58:35,599
and softer

1640
00:58:39,030 --> 00:58:36,480
and

1641
00:58:40,390 --> 00:58:39,040
we have observed this in animals i mean

1642
00:58:41,910 --> 00:58:40,400
you we know the difference between a dog

1643
00:58:43,430 --> 00:58:41,920
that's whining and a dog that's growling

1644
00:58:45,430 --> 00:58:43,440
and a dog that's barking

1645
00:58:47,109 --> 00:58:45,440
and um rebecca dunlop did some of this

1646
00:58:49,750 --> 00:58:47,119
work in humpback whales

1647
00:58:51,990 --> 00:58:49,760
and um and looked to see whether or not

1648
00:58:53,589 --> 00:58:52,000
arousal states followed these rules and

1649
00:58:55,030 --> 00:58:53,599
found that it did that there is some

1650
00:58:57,990 --> 00:58:55,040
evidence that you can infer the

1651
00:59:00,150 --> 00:58:58,000
motivation or the the state of a whale

1652
00:59:03,109 --> 00:59:00,160
based on the sounds itself now we

1653
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:03,119
haven't linked that to music and um

1654
00:59:07,109 --> 00:59:04,880
there's a woman whose name escapes me at

1655
00:59:09,109 --> 00:59:07,119
the moment but she's been doing that a

1656
00:59:11,030 --> 00:59:09,119
little bit with whale's song looking at

1657
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:11,040
the relationship between the structure

1658
00:59:14,710 --> 00:59:12,480
of whale song and the structure of human

1659
00:59:16,549 --> 00:59:14,720
music and finding commonalities there

1660
00:59:19,030 --> 00:59:16,559
but i do think that

1661
00:59:20,630 --> 00:59:19,040
um in the same way that we in it's

1662
00:59:21,510 --> 00:59:20,640
really important for lots of mammals to

1663
00:59:23,589 --> 00:59:21,520
infer

1664
00:59:25,030 --> 00:59:23,599
the motivational or emotional state of

1665
00:59:26,950 --> 00:59:25,040
others in order to know how to properly

1666
00:59:28,390 --> 00:59:26,960
act but that is definitely information

1667
00:59:29,910 --> 00:59:28,400
that is encoded in humpback whale

1668
00:59:32,150 --> 00:59:29,920
language and

1669
00:59:35,190 --> 00:59:32,160
while we haven't yet necessarily figured

1670
00:59:37,910 --> 00:59:35,200
out what the sound of an aggressive

1671
00:59:42,710 --> 00:59:37,920
whale call versus a appeasing whale call

1672
00:59:46,470 --> 00:59:43,990
last question

1673
00:59:48,950 --> 00:59:46,480
uh lou elizondo uh

1674
00:59:51,190 --> 00:59:48,960
asked by what basis do we or can we

1675
00:59:53,190 --> 00:59:51,200
establish a baseline for for that which

1676
00:59:55,030 --> 00:59:53,200
there is no apparent decoder or legend

1677
00:59:56,150 --> 00:59:55,040
to read the code in the first place does

1678
00:59:58,150 --> 00:59:56,160
this include

1679
01:00:00,309 --> 00:59:58,160
non-verbal cues as well and can it

1680
01:00:02,309 --> 01:00:00,319
include languages that are non-verbal

1681
01:00:03,990 --> 01:00:02,319
too

1682
01:00:07,030 --> 01:00:04,000
it certainly should

1683
01:00:08,309 --> 01:00:07,040
um i mean it is again it's there's an

1684
01:00:09,990 --> 01:00:08,319
arrogance and thinking that

1685
01:00:12,549 --> 01:00:10,000
communication is only limited to the way

1686
01:00:14,789 --> 01:00:12,559
that we do it and i mean for that matter

1687
01:00:16,630 --> 01:00:14,799
humans use non-verbal cues all the time

1688
01:00:18,390 --> 01:00:16,640
so there are lots of

1689
01:00:21,430 --> 01:00:18,400
field of scientific study about visual

1690
01:00:23,670 --> 01:00:21,440
signaling and olfactory communication

1691
01:00:25,349 --> 01:00:23,680
um and so i would say that in in the

1692
01:00:27,190 --> 01:00:25,359
animal world we're actually fairly good

1693
01:00:29,829 --> 01:00:27,200
at that at looking at how animals

1694
01:00:31,910 --> 01:00:29,839
communicate non-verbally um and in

1695
01:00:33,589 --> 01:00:31,920
humpback whales i'm working on a project

1696
01:00:35,750 --> 01:00:33,599
right now with um

1697
01:00:37,349 --> 01:00:35,760
a researcher named um josephine schultz

1698
01:00:38,710 --> 01:00:37,359
where we're looking at what what makes a

1699
01:00:40,470 --> 01:00:38,720
whale breach

1700
01:00:42,390 --> 01:00:40,480
why you know what inspires the whale to

1701
01:00:44,470 --> 01:00:42,400
jump out of the water and

1702
01:00:46,230 --> 01:00:44,480
and that's a non-verbal cue and the work

1703
01:00:48,630 --> 01:00:46,240
by rebecca dunlop showed that it's

1704
01:00:50,309 --> 01:00:48,640
likely that these like breaching and

1705
01:00:52,549 --> 01:00:50,319
flipper slapping and tail lobbing that

1706
01:00:53,750 --> 01:00:52,559
those are all forms of of non-verbal

1707
01:00:56,470 --> 01:00:53,760
communication

1708
01:00:59,030 --> 01:00:56,480
so yes i think that it is essential that

1709
01:01:00,549 --> 01:00:59,040
we look at these things holistically now

1710
01:01:02,309 --> 01:01:00,559
underwater it makes the most sense to

1711
01:01:04,309 --> 01:01:02,319
look at sound because it's very hard to

1712
01:01:07,270 --> 01:01:04,319
otherwise see and because chemical

1713
01:01:09,829 --> 01:01:07,280
signals don't travel very far um but in

1714
01:01:12,069 --> 01:01:09,839
air and in land i think that that's an

1715
01:01:13,510 --> 01:01:12,079
extremely important point that it isn't

1716
01:01:16,069 --> 01:01:13,520
just what we hear and what is said that

1717
01:01:18,950 --> 01:01:16,079
makes up language that there are cues

1718
01:01:20,309 --> 01:01:18,960
that come from from all kind of sources

1719
01:01:21,190 --> 01:01:20,319
that might not be things that you can

1720
01:01:22,309 --> 01:01:21,200
hear

1721
01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:22,319
one more question that i'm just going to

1722
01:01:26,789 --> 01:01:24,720
throw in here um is about the the area

1723
01:01:28,309 --> 01:01:26,799
of the catalina islands off the coast of

1724
01:01:29,910 --> 01:01:28,319
uh california

1725
01:01:32,390 --> 01:01:29,920
i hear a lot of conversation about that

1726
01:01:34,789 --> 01:01:32,400
area being important to whale migration

1727
01:01:37,510 --> 01:01:34,799
um yeah and i just wanted to know if you

1728
01:01:40,309 --> 01:01:37,520
uh could enlighten me on that

1729
01:01:41,990 --> 01:01:40,319
um sure i i don't work there so i should

1730
01:01:44,470 --> 01:01:42,000
be very clear about that but the whole

1731
01:01:46,390 --> 01:01:44,480
area in sort of that southern california

1732
01:01:47,990 --> 01:01:46,400
region near the catalina islands

1733
01:01:48,789 --> 01:01:48,000
is i mean

1734
01:01:49,990 --> 01:01:48,799
i'm assuming we're talking about

1735
01:01:52,309 --> 01:01:50,000
catalina island which is off of

1736
01:01:53,349 --> 01:01:52,319
california yes that's right yeah okay

1737
01:01:54,870 --> 01:01:53,359
all right just making sure that i'm not

1738
01:01:56,630 --> 01:01:54,880
making a total fool of myself on a

1739
01:01:58,150 --> 01:01:56,640
podcast um

1740
01:02:00,309 --> 01:01:58,160
yes that's a really important foraging

1741
01:02:02,950 --> 01:02:00,319
ground um for blue whales fin whales

1742
01:02:05,109 --> 01:02:02,960
humpback whales um it's also a really

1743
01:02:07,190 --> 01:02:05,119
important foraging ground for california

1744
01:02:09,029 --> 01:02:07,200
sea lions and harbor seals it's um it's

1745
01:02:11,190 --> 01:02:09,039
a biological hot spot for sure um

1746
01:02:12,549 --> 01:02:11,200
catalina island also has a really quite

1747
01:02:14,390 --> 01:02:12,559
extraordinary

1748
01:02:16,870 --> 01:02:14,400
biodiversity of birds

1749
01:02:18,710 --> 01:02:16,880
and um you know in southern california

1750
01:02:20,789 --> 01:02:18,720
also is an industrial area

1751
01:02:22,230 --> 01:02:20,799
so that whole area down there they've

1752
01:02:24,789 --> 01:02:22,240
been doing a lot of work on preventing

1753
01:02:27,349 --> 01:02:24,799
shift strikes and reducing noise and and

1754
01:02:28,950 --> 01:02:27,359
trying to understand biodiversity um and

1755
01:02:30,309 --> 01:02:28,960
then the california coast all the way up

1756
01:02:32,470 --> 01:02:30,319
the pacific coast up to oregon and

1757
01:02:34,230 --> 01:02:32,480
washington is an upwelling zone

1758
01:02:36,470 --> 01:02:34,240
and so we have areas of really high

1759
01:02:38,390 --> 01:02:36,480
primary productivity and there are

1760
01:02:41,349 --> 01:02:38,400
populations of whales that will stick

1761
01:02:43,589 --> 01:02:41,359
around in that um in some cases we call

1762
01:02:45,829 --> 01:02:43,599
them the cow stock the california oregon

1763
01:02:48,870 --> 01:02:45,839
washington stock rather than migrating

1764
01:02:50,870 --> 01:02:48,880
all the way up north and so that area is

1765
01:02:53,109 --> 01:02:50,880
is i mean it's it's a it's a critical

1766
01:02:54,630 --> 01:02:53,119
foraging ground it's a conservation area

1767
01:02:56,390 --> 01:02:54,640
and it's also an area where we have a

1768
01:02:57,990 --> 01:02:56,400
lot of people which means it's a great

1769
01:02:59,430 --> 01:02:58,000
opportunity it's an opportunity for

1770
01:03:01,750 --> 01:02:59,440
people to observe whales it's an

1771
01:03:04,470 --> 01:03:01,760
opportunity for people to understand the

1772
01:03:06,710 --> 01:03:04,480
diversity in their local ecosystem and

1773
01:03:08,950 --> 01:03:06,720
for us to

1774
01:03:10,309 --> 01:03:08,960
self-manage like how do we manage

1775
01:03:12,870 --> 01:03:10,319
ourselves in the context of these

1776
01:03:14,470 --> 01:03:12,880
animals not remove us from the ecosystem

1777
01:03:16,710 --> 01:03:14,480
we're never going to remove humans from

1778
01:03:19,510 --> 01:03:16,720
the equation and we shouldn't but how do

1779
01:03:21,109 --> 01:03:19,520
we how do we happily coexist in this

1780
01:03:22,470 --> 01:03:21,119
sort of urban

1781
01:03:23,990 --> 01:03:22,480
urban ocean

1782
01:03:25,990 --> 01:03:24,000
that was an incredibly enlightening

1783
01:03:27,430 --> 01:03:26,000
conversation and just before we wrap up

1784
01:03:29,029 --> 01:03:27,440
uh can you let people know how they can

1785
01:03:32,630 --> 01:03:29,039
follow your work

1786
01:03:33,670 --> 01:03:32,640
sure yeah um i'm easy to find um you can

1787
01:03:36,150 --> 01:03:33,680
follow

1788
01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:36,160
my work on occasionally i'm on twitter

1789
01:03:40,069 --> 01:03:38,160
and bella lady you can also follow the

1790
01:03:42,150 --> 01:03:40,079
work of my of the non-profit of which i

1791
01:03:43,670 --> 01:03:42,160
am the director which is um the sound

1792
01:03:46,950 --> 01:03:43,680
science research collective you can find

1793
01:03:51,670 --> 01:03:49,430
you can also find me on instagram where

1794
01:03:53,750 --> 01:03:51,680
i post whale photos from time to time

1795
01:03:55,670 --> 01:03:53,760
i'm also at embella lady there you can

1796
01:03:56,950 --> 01:03:55,680
also just google me i'm a visiting

1797
01:03:58,950 --> 01:03:56,960
assistant professor at the university of

1798
01:04:01,750 --> 01:03:58,960
new hampshire so you can follow my

1799
01:04:03,349 --> 01:04:01,760
research lab there the seababel lab so

1800
01:04:05,349 --> 01:04:03,359
it's the marine bioacoustics and

1801
01:04:07,510 --> 01:04:05,359
behavior lab cbable

1802
01:04:10,630 --> 01:04:07,520
and

1803
01:04:11,910 --> 01:04:10,640
haven't already

1804
01:04:13,430 --> 01:04:11,920
and then you'll learn more about me than

1805
01:04:15,270 --> 01:04:13,440
you ever wanted to because it's a very

1806
01:04:16,549 --> 01:04:15,280
revealing film but there's also lots of

1807
01:04:18,309 --> 01:04:16,559
whales so you could watch it for the

1808
01:04:20,549 --> 01:04:18,319
whales well do you know if there'll be a

1809
01:04:22,150 --> 01:04:20,559
follow-up for fathom no there will not

1810
01:04:24,309 --> 01:04:22,160
be a follow-up for fathom that is just a

1811
01:04:25,910 --> 01:04:24,319
one-and-done yeah although i do think

1812
01:04:28,309 --> 01:04:25,920
that the filmmaker will probably come

1813
01:04:29,190 --> 01:04:28,319
back to me into the film into the field

1814
01:04:31,510 --> 01:04:29,200
um

1815
01:04:33,190 --> 01:04:31,520
just for just for giggles but no there

1816
01:04:35,349 --> 01:04:33,200
there will be there will be no fathom

1817
01:04:37,670 --> 01:04:35,359
too

1818
01:04:38,789 --> 01:04:37,680
well a huge thank you to yourself dr

1819
01:04:40,069 --> 01:04:38,799
michelle fourney for a wonderful

1820
01:04:41,910 --> 01:04:40,079
conversation and thank you to all the

1821
01:04:43,349 --> 01:04:41,920
listeners for listening with that we'll

1822
01:04:44,789 --> 01:04:43,359
sit for a minute and just really take in

1823
01:04:46,630 --> 01:04:44,799
what we're hearing and listen to some

1824
01:04:48,470 --> 01:04:46,640
complex whale song and appreciate it now

1825
01:04:52,690 --> 01:04:48,480
michelle's enlightened us as to as to

1826
01:05:18,450 --> 01:05:14,310
[Music]

1827
01:05:25,530 --> 01:05:18,460
me

1828
01:05:25,540 --> 01:05:29,829
[Music]

1829
01:05:29,839 --> 01:05:33,380
trees

1830
01:05:47,190 --> 01:05:43,560
[Music]

1831
01:05:48,870 --> 01:05:47,200
that is all for this week's show thank

1832
01:05:50,390 --> 01:05:48,880
you very much for listening please

1833
01:05:52,150 --> 01:05:50,400
remember to leave the podcaster review

1834
01:05:54,069 --> 01:05:52,160
on your chosen platform if you could

1835
01:05:56,069 --> 01:05:54,079
like share and subscribe that would be

1836
01:05:58,069 --> 01:05:56,079
very much appreciated you can support

1837
01:05:59,910 --> 01:05:58,079
the show and get ad-free early access to

1838
01:06:01,990 --> 01:05:59,920
content by becoming a member on youtube

1839
01:06:04,789 --> 01:06:02,000
or on patreon just search the name of

1840
01:06:06,549 --> 01:06:04,799
the channel that ufo podcast please feel

1841
01:06:09,829 --> 01:06:06,559
free to get in touch with me on twitter

1842
01:06:11,390 --> 01:06:09,839
or instagram at thesignal or email me at

1843
01:06:14,069 --> 01:06:11,400
thesignal

1844
01:06:16,069 --> 01:06:14,079
protonmail.com as always remember to be

1845
01:06:21,230 --> 01:06:16,079
curious the universe is bigger than we